Oh god, this got derailed quite quickly didn't it

You're right. I better change that. Still brutality is brutality

When?

Where?

Brutality?
Maintaining security with military may lead to it in some cases.
Its complicated.


Brutality as policy
- there is no such thing at least not since the 90s.
At the beginning of the Palestinian uprising (about 1987)things had been a bit different yet far cry from what some implay.
this policy led to similar criticism in Israel as abroad and possibly is one of the reasons which led to talks with PLO.
Israel could not maintain and did not want to maintain it.

I think Tyrant is right here...but it was so obvious it would happen.:haha:

Its interesting though how some people are obsessed with Palestinian Israeli conflict while real genocide is happening few hundreds kilometers from here yet all you can see is fascinating tanks battle videos about it.
Go figure...maybe israel is doing it wrong.:doh:

People forget that "genoicde" has a specific definition that is set in some international law, a definition that is so specific that if governments agree to the use of the term they are bound by international law to react to it. Genocide is the systematic effort of not only trying to wipe out the living members of a race or ethnically defined group, but also to wipe out their tradition and culture defining their identity. It is a mass killing of a population plus the cleansing of the history books and the deletion of a cultural identity.

That is why it is so absurd to compare the events in the Ukraine or the Palestinian territories as "genocide", as if they would in any way compare to the sclae and intention of the Nazi's holocaust.

Nobody in the Ukraine tries to wipe out the Ukrainian population and to clean the history books of the Ukrainian history and identity.

Nobody in Israel tries to massmurder all Palestinians - and it even is that a separate Palestinian ethnicity or tradition in the modern Palestinians' understanding or claim never exiosted. The Palestinians were always a very mixed breed, but no separate tribe or ethnicity, and long ago Hebrews and others alos were part of the "Palestinian" group. What today is called "the Palestinians", is simply Arab people of normal Arab descent from all of the Arab world, whose ancestors for the most had moved to "Palestine" and beside the "genocide" Israel committing on them showed to be extremely fertile and multiply the population size by several factors in less than half a hundred years.

Ukraine a genocide? Israel and Palestine, a genocide? Gimme a drink, and make it a strong one.

Rwanda - that qualifies as genocide. The hunting down of Christians and cleaning of whole countrysides in Somalia and by the Muslim militias - that is gencoide. The uncountable tribal wars in Africa, and Congo especially - that are genocides. Here it is about wiping out all people of a given tribal/ethnic descent, and killing their cultural history and tradition, so that it or any survivors of the massacres could never live up again and become a living identity.

It is a ridiculing of the Nazi's crimes to compare their holocaust against the Jews with the deaths in a civil unrest in the Ukraine, or the struggle for land control and state security in the former Roman province of Judea.

So, let's be more hesitent to use the term "genocide".

What Skybird said.




http://www.luekensliquors.com/images/Blue-Moon-Bee.jpg

@Skybird you forgot a few things

1. The Nazis did not win the war, what if they did?

2. How would the outcome of this Endlösung if Germany had won the war.

As I see it, they couldn't have committed genocide because they hadn't the time to do so. On the other hand if they had time to it, they would indeed have committed genocide on the Jews(in Germany and in the occupied countries)

I do say the same as Jim, we must NEVER forget and we shall do anything we can to prevent this to happen again.

Markus

I already know which statements you disagree with. My only interest is to offer the unbiased truth to the best of my ability. Palestine is frequently used as a red herring by holocaust deniers for a variety of purposes including claiming that it is another episode of genocide. Skybird covered already why it is not (not by a long shot), so I will not waste further words.

Yes Auschwitz is the standing symbol, and unimaginable things happened there. But the numbers and the details are important, as those that deny and convince others of what they speak, play with and exploit the vargarities. The problem is the public does not have any real understanding of the holocaust, it is unimaginable for many, and this is what deniers prey on. They will twist and obfuscate facts, offer testimony from supposed 'experts', cherry pick facts and arguments, and so on.

To combat this, those that do know this subject matter intimately (I unfortunately do know this subject intimately) need to offer corrections when false statements are given, and refute the deniers claims with hard evidence and sound logic. It probably will not change the opinion of the denier, but it may clarify some aspects for the observers.

That is entirely correct.

The Nazi's would have finished the final solution with the Jews, then move on to the next groups of subhumans and so on until only pure Aryans remained. Nuclear war might happen with the US. Who knows what else.

They did have the time, and they wasted an incredible amount of resources and manpower doing it (I would consider it a factor in Germany losing the war).

If you like, I can offer you many different academically reputable resources on the Holocaust, and/or I can answer questions. I would warn you though, delving deep into the holocaust can be soul crushing. I cannot think of more black and horrific material (and professionally I work with complex trauma survivors who have survived things you wouldn't want to imagine). Most people don't know much about the holocaust, because they really do not want to know the finer details. I don't blame them.

6 million dead, a clear plan and intention to clean Europe of Jewish culture and life, and I do not know how many Jewish people being displaced and made to flee - not good enough for you to call that genocide?

If that is no genocide, then the term is meaningless.

You better think it over.

Believe it or not...
Although I disagree with most of Skybird's comments when it comes to the 6.000.000numberohBOWDOWNANDCRYEVERYBODYGermanywass uchaterrificthingduringWW2 theory... I like to read his posts. And I say it again : I disagree with most of what he says still. Why do I like his posts ? Well, everyone knows the man is rather well-informed, and got some enlightened ways to approach some complex issues, plus let's say quite a few of his posts show quite some will to... Well, to spread some peaceful messages here and there (although that tends not to be the case when it comes to your actual enemies that are supposed to be everyone's worst enemies following the result of WW2, hehe), so to be accepted and kind of forgiven just for being kind of German-very-unfortunately-I'm-sorry-for-that, LOL. Well, one gets to think that way particularly when he was born in Germany in the fifties/sixties, and was ********** force-fed with that propaganda coming from those who won the war as it was just won.

And when it comes to "those who won the war". Here I wish to let you know I definitely make a difference between citizen and their country/elites : like I'm speaking that way about those who won the war, but that doesn't mean I hate you because you're living in the united states of America or whatever. You've just got to eat that stuff yourself morning, noon and night too so that makes you a very decent and obedient pro-american pro-war pro-capitalist puppet (and here I need to say again there's no hate nor scorn in that, you absolutely don't need to feel any kind of disregard from myself here : I'm just speaking about the way everyone is raised in your country following the average educational background in western countries), so average people react that way when it comes to that horrible genocide even though their own family didn't suffer from it (thanks go to Hollywood)... So horrible it's no more a so-called genocide, but it's got its own name in the 70s (a name that wasn't even mentioned at the Nuremberg trials), just to make it more unique to the point everybody refers to that event as they would to a religion. If you translate that hebrew word I won't mention into arabic language, what do you get ? Nakba. Cough cough cough cough cough. Cough.

I won't burden anyone with that topic and talk about it in great length. Got enough infractions so far in here, and if people are happy with "what must never be forgotten in order never to repeat itself", it's good for them. So we won't be speaking about the help Zionists got from Nazi Germany entailing the mass transfer of tens of thousands of German Jews to Palestine, that lasted from 1933 to the first couple of years of WW2. But you need to keep something in mind : what is called the duty of remembrance, the obligation to remember, or duty never to forget definitely is selective. It conveys a political message.

Stop smoking whatever you do.
OOOOh....you throw the magical words...you know the hidden things lol

You know what nakba actually means and what it stands for?:doh:

So what?
Do you know in what context it was done?

Having no common sense but holding some some controversial opinions does not make you enlightened.
I agree many people think it does ....oh yes you stand out too lol.

No, dude. He clearly said we wouldn't be talking about that.


:roll:

Or NAMBLA.

Sadly the six million figure is not fantasy or exaggeration. It may be off, it may be lower, but it also may be higher. That number is about the mid point of most evidence based estimates.

I know it is a figure that is hard to imagine or believe. I had difficulty with it too when I first started doing research into the subject. I think one of the most interesting researchers in this field is Jean-Claude Pressac. The reason is he actually came from the denial camp. He was part of Robert Faurisson's clique before he was forced to make a complete reversal in his position due his extensive research at Auschwitz. As he put it "I nearly did away with myself one evening in October 1979 in the main camp, the Stammlager, overwhelmed by the evidence and by despair". He is an honest researcher, in that he went where the evidence took him

The current numbers are also not based on propaganda. The propaganda numbers were all over the place, from a couple of million to well over 10 million. The original claims at Auschwitz by the Communists for example was 4 million people murdered, which was utterly absurd. Modern estimations are based on more solid evidence, such as the differences in census populations before and after the war, the use of German records where they survive (The Nazi's tried very hard to eradicate most of the evidence, but they failed to get everything, such as train schedules that had head counts), or archeological evidence (I could link a really gruesome archeological survey that was done at one of the Aktion Reinhard camps if you like).

A lot of other things have been done away with by researchers since the end of the war, as they were shown not to be true (there was a tiny bit of truth to this story, there was a lab where they did experiment in making soap from human fat). For example the one about soap being made from Jewish body tissue. Some are also highly suspect, such as some of the stories about Ilse Koch (AKA the b**** of buchenwald) and the lamps made of tattooed human skin. Corrections are made when actual errors are discovered.

There is also a mountain of evidence of what happened, everything from plans of the camps, different records and messages, survivor testimony (some of which is rather inaccurate, but not very surprisingly), the testimony of camp guards, several of whom do not have the slightest regret for their involvement, and the physical evidence that still remains to this day.

The holocaust is different from many other genocides, partly because of the relative scale of it. It successfully wiped out most Jewish centers, particularly in Eastern Europe, where entire villages, even cities were entirely liquidated to the last person. It was also the only example of mechanized mass slaughter, not the machete style killings of Rwanda or Cambodia. But purpose built centers designed to kill every single person that was brought there. Liquidating entire trains loaded with people crammed together in cattle cars, in a few hours or less. That is in part what makes the holocaust different.

As for your translation, that is not what it means in Arabic. Most Arab countries refuse to teach anything having to do with the holocaust, because of their own agenda, so there is not a word.

Ah yes that old thing with the Haavara Agreement. Unsurprisingly the denial sites always get that one rather wrong. Yes prior to the start of WW2 (it stopped entirely once Germany invaded Poland, so no it did not go on for a couple of years into WW2) the Nazi's would export any Jews that would pay the price, which was a minimum of thousand pounds sterling, and the forfeiture of all of their assets in Germany. Of course the denial sites don't mention most of the above or what happened to many of the Jewish people who took this route out of desperation and fear, or why there were very few Jewish people to begin with in the area (the place which was their historical homeland), all the different pogroms that happened during that time, and for the last 1500 years. The Nazi's also pretty much seized everything the person owned, as they were exported as property from Germany, not as passengers. So the Jews that took this route basically lost everything they owned. Of course all of this happened well before the Nazi's came up with the final solution to the Jewish problem.

As for the infractions, you can discuss and debate this topic if you wish. The condition is you have to bring some evidence to your arguments, and avoid any form of Nazi or other Racist rhetoric or imagery (we do not tolerate hate speech here). I am always happy to take apart any denial or 'revisionist' material and show it for what it really is, a product of hatred. If you can do this, you will not get any infractions from me, nor anyone else, as you would be within our rules.

Israel and Palestine are entirely separate subject matter, and are not immediately relevant. Even though the aftermath of the Holocaust does factor into the creation of Israel, it is still a separate event.


Also for anyone else reading who has doubts on the veracity of the holocaust, or has read some of the denial material and is uncertain. By all means ask questions. The thing about denial literature is it seems rational and reasonable on the surface, scratch at it, and it falls apart very quickly.
This is a good place to start.
66 Questions & Answers About the Holocaust
The Nizkor site itself also contains a great deal of information.

History always repeats itself no matter how much you illuminate a past event.

There are currently those who would gleefully repeat history on a grander scale if you read the tenants inscribed in multiple languages on the Georgia Guide stones.:hmmm: