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-   -   Confederate flag flies again.. (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=206492)

Ducimus 08-09-13 04:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mookiemookie (Post 2097801)
If your heritage involves going to war to retain the right to own slaves, then that part of your heritage sucks and shouldn't be celebrated.
Funny thing about the Civil war, there's a couple different versions of it, and even what it's called depends on who you talk to. War between the states, Civil war, or War of northern aggression. In any event I don't think it was just about slavery. The slavery thing was stamped over other issues to claim the moral high ground, and has been regurgitated as such forever, but I don't think it was *just* about slavery. I think the more informed view is one that many social and economic reasons as well as slavery lead to the Civil war. Not just, "OMG they're keeping slaves, lets free them!" The emancipation proclamation could very well be the all time masterpiece of propaganda of any American president in this regard.

Now, I'm not defending the south, I'm just saying there's a bit more to it then a black and white statement of "going to war to retain slaves". Most southerners who served as soldiers didn't even own slaves.

Armistead 08-09-13 04:09 PM
A big problem is cities and states want CSA reenactors to show up in mass for parades, dedications, holidays or events. Most our groups bring their regiment flag that displays regiment number and battle history. These are exact replicas of the originals, but most are backdropped the the battle flag. Most govt events that involve the public we can no longer fly them.

What really got this group going is when the Confederate flag was removed from the the Confederate Memorial Chapel in Richmond. Then the opening of the new Museum of the Confederacy at Appomattox, which won't have a Confederate flag in or out of the museum.

Wolferz 08-09-13 04:10 PM
:agree::sign_yeah:

Edit: What Ducimus said, not what Armistead poked his nose in and said.:D

Armistead 08-09-13 04:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ducimus (Post 2097824)
Funny thing about the Civil war, there's a couple different versions of it, and even what it's called depends on who you talk to. War between the states, Civil war, or War of northern aggression. In any event I don't think it was just about slavery. The slavery thing was stamped over other issues to claim the moral high ground, and has been regurgitated as such forever, but I don't think it was *just* about slavery. I think the more informed view is one that many social and economic reasons as well as slavery lead to the Civil war. Not just, "OMG they're keeping slaves, lets free them!" The emancipation proclamation could very well be the all time masterpiece of propaganda of any American president in this regard.

Now, I'm not defending the south, I'm just saying there's a bit more to it then a black and white statement of "going to war to retain slaves". Most southerners who served as soldiers didn't even own slaves.
Yep, the US govt. had no problem enslaving and exterminating the indians. Free one people, enslave another. Just like the CW, it was about economics and politics.

AVGWarhawk 08-09-13 04:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simmy (Post 2097704)
That flag is a part of history, as almost all flags are.
In America you can fly a Nazi flag but not a Confederate flag?
Somehow that doesn't make much sense.
You can fly any flag you like but be prepared to have someone make a statement about it.

Aktungbby 08-09-13 04:27 PM
[QUOTE=Sailor Steve;2097804]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Armistead (Post 2097678)
However, I love history. I don't even get into the heritage and pride thing, what my ancestors did is simply history to me, something I want to know and understand.QUOTE]
My sentiments exactly. July 24 is the anniversary of the day the Mormon pioneers entered the Salt Lake valley. I make a point of asking people "The Pioneers came here to escape from the United States. That's fine, but why are you flying the American flag and not the Utah State flag?" :O:
Interesting debate: and not far removed from our subsimming passion, as in Germany the game we play cannot have certain flags?? However as a Federal security officer often charged with daily flag duty and as a Civil War reenactor, I'm somewhere in-between on the issue. I've participated in formal Fourth of July parades and that military review stand salutes either the US flag ( Damnyankee) or the rebel battle flag with equal enthusiasm as they go by. What strikes me as peculiar is that parade permits are still issued to the KKK as a function of free speech yet flag issues of a considerably less offensive nature when conducted in a historical context are 'verboten'. We don't disallow the redcoats a British flag at Williamsburg or any of the revolutionary related events and they were slave owners too..

Armistead 08-09-13 04:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolferz (Post 2097831)
:agree::sign_yeah:

Edit: What Ducimus said, not what Armistead poked his nose in and said.:D

Down here, we would refer to you as a "Bummer".

Interesting, the Danville Museum does fly the Va 3rd state flag which has a Confederate flag in it's corner. Even though it's overall state property, the house has 3 deeds, two are private. Where the Confederate flag is, about 10 sq feet of ground is privately owned within the property. Guess that's one way to solve the issue, however it was done.

Simmy 08-09-13 04:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mookiemookie (Post 2097801)
Well I guess you could fly a Nazi flag, but you'd probably regret the decision.

And the "heritage not hate" argument is tired. If your heritage involves going to war to retain the right to own slaves, then that part of your heritage sucks and shouldn't be celebrated.
Well I wouldn't fly it myself, but I have seen many marches where it was flown.
One thing many don't seem to understand is that 90/95% of the people who fought under that flag didn't own slaves and the right to keep slaves was not a major issue to them. They fought because they saw their country as under attack from a foreign power. And many blacks fought under the same flag once the South needed help and promised them freedom if they would fight. Many black leaders do not want that to be made public but it's a simple fact of history very easily proven.

"You can fly any flag you like but be prepared to have someone make a statement about it".

Very true. But you can't fly a CSA flag can you?

Armistead 08-09-13 05:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mookiemookie (Post 2097801)
Well I guess you could fly a Nazi flag, but you'd probably regret the decision.

And the "heritage not hate" argument is tired. If your heritage involves going to war to retain the right to own slaves, then that part of your heritage sucks and shouldn't be celebrated.
The South didn't go to war, we left the union and were invaded.

CaptainMattJ. 08-09-13 05:07 PM
What Ducimus said. Historical sites should be able to fly both flags, stars and stripes on top and stars and bars on bottom.

Its much like the many mexican and other central/south american immigrants who fly their flag, but not the U.S. There have been cases of students here in california raising the mexican flag on a school's flagpole and then flipping the american flag upside down. Or when they are protesting they'll be waving primarily mexican flags, yet few if any American flags.

In a slightly similar manner some southerners will fly only the confederate flag. To me it seems disrespectful to the United States as a whole, inferring to me that you still harbor grudges about the unity of this nation.

All of this i find as a slight affront to the nation they live in. If i moved to France to live out the rest of my life and felt like honering my heritage as an American, i would fly the french flag above the american flag, to show that i respect and enjoy the nation i live in, while honoring the heritage of my birthplace and origin. My opinion is that this is how it SHOULD be done.

If you're gonna fly the flags of your ancestors, having been raised in this country all your life, then at least fly both flags when applicable. Its understandable in a setting like a reenactment that you only fly one as per historical context.

Aktungbby 08-09-13 05:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainMattJ. (Post 2097860)
What Ducimus said. Historical sites should be able to fly both flags, stars and stripes on top and stars and bars on bottom.

Its much like the many mexican and other central/south american immigrants who fly their flag, but not the U.S. There have been cases of students here in california raising the mexican flag on a school's flagpole and then flipping the american flag upside down. Or when they are protesting they'll be waving primarily mexican flags, yet few if any American flags.

In a slightly similar manner some southerners will fly only the confederate flag. To me it seems disrespectful to the United States as a whole, inferring to me that you still harbor grudges about the unity of this nation.

All of this i find as a slight affront to the nation they live in. If i moved to France to live out the rest of my life and felt like honering my heritage as an American, i would fly the french flag above the american flag, to show that i respect and enjoy the nation i live in, while honoring the heritage of my birthplace and origin. My opinion is that this is how it SHOULD be done.

If you're gonna fly the flags of your ancestors, having been raised in this country all your life, then at least fly both flags when applicable. Its understandable in a setting like a reenactment that you only fly one as per historical context.
See you at old Ft Point where my unit occasionally re-enacts for the U.S. parks department. With much red-tape paper work typical of a Ft. Sumpter style fort, we got the garrison size flagpole restored at the top parapet. Real re-enactors go both ways especially when used in film extra work as in Glory or North and South. Your opinion matches my own and is well considered and temperate. We are a multi-flag nation where free speech and latent political incorrectness are normal!:arrgh!:

Platapus 08-09-13 05:42 PM
If the people in the south wish to fly the confederate national flag (stars and bars) I could understand and approve.

However, what the wish to do is fly a battle flag of an entity that was at war with our country. That is quite different. A battle flag is a symbol of hostility, a national flag could be considered a symbol of pride/heritage.

Aktungbby 08-09-13 05:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Armistead (Post 2097850)
Down here, we would refer to you as a "Bummer".

Interesting, the Danville Museum does fly the Va 3rd state flag which has a Confederate flag in it's corner. Even though it's overall state property, the house has 3 deeds, two are private. Where the Confederate flag is, about 10 sq feet of ground is privately owned within the property. Guess that's one way to solve the issue, however it was done.
As opposed to a scalawag or carpetbagger. Technically bummers marched with Sherman not the honorable if inept Army of the Potomac. HOT DAMN!:arrgh!:

Takeda Shingen 08-09-13 08:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Armistead (Post 2097859)
The South didn't go to war, we left the union and were invaded.
Untrue, regardless of how many times you repeat it.

Sailor Steve 08-09-13 09:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Armistead (Post 2097850)
does fly the Va 3rd state flag
All of the Southern state flags were adopted during the war. This doesn't bother me at all. What bothers me is that I don't know what they replaced. Even looking online I can't find what the flag of, say, Alabama was prior to 1861.

Do you know what the original state flags were?


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