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-   -   Maximum range at current speed has increased 50% (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=206014)

c13Garrison 07-24-13 07:55 PM

Let me try to put this in Harry Seldon math... (wink to Isaac Asimov!)

"Uppity XO" = "disobedient eXecutive Officer",

"Smack down" = ...hm. how about an example. Darth Vader saying, "I find your lack of faith disturbing", and scaring the crap out of that officer by intimidation.

I'm sure there's better examples, that amuses me at this particular moment. :)

BrucePartington 07-24-13 08:02 PM

There it is, the senior officer of the Command crew on watch, of all people. :D
Lucky you, I have one with that particular special ability....in the aft torpedo room:/\\!!

The way I see it, this special ability is either available or it isn't.
It would make no sense for it to be available as a 1 or 2 hours worth of temporary boost.
So my guess is it's always available, for the duration of that officer's watch.

Azgrim 07-24-13 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by c13Garrison (Post 2089924)
Let me try to put this in Harry Seldon math... (wink to Isaac Asimov!)

"Uppity XO" = "disobedient eXecutive Officer",

"Smack down" = ...hm. how about an example. Darth Vader saying, "I find your lack of faith disturbing", and scaring the crap out of that officer by intimidation.

I'm sure there's better examples, that amuses me at this particular moment. :)

Yes, the "lack of faith" one is great, really. :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrucePartington (Post 2089925)
There it is, the senior officer of the Command crew on watch, of all people. :D
Lucky you, I have one with that particular special ability....in the aft torpedo room:/\\!!

Lucky me... I've calmed down already.
Tell me, why would I provide in this screenshot descriptions for each type of ability? Yes, because I wanted them to be red. But, I think that's my luck.
I'll retype it for you:
"BATTERY RECHARGE FIX
fix for reducing excessively long recharge times. DO NOT LOSE THIS CREWMEMBER. PLACE IN AFTER BATTERY COMPARTMENT IF YOU THINK HE MAY DIE"
Any questions? :O:

In my screenshot this ability and its description are highlighted with light green.

BrucePartington 07-24-13 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azgrim (Post 2089971)
Yes, the "lack of faith" one is great, really. :D


Lucky me... I've calmed down already.
Tell me, why would I provide in this screenshot descriptions for each type of ability? Yes, because I wanted them to be red. But, I think that's my luck.
I'll retype it for you:
"BATTERY RECHARGE FIX
fix for reducing excessively long recharge times. DO NOT LOSE THIS CREWMEMBER. PLACE IN AFTER BATTERY COMPARTMENT IF YOU THINK HE MAY DIE"
Any questions? :O:

In my screenshot this ability and its description are highlighted with light green.

I was referring to the extended fuel range issue. The officer I pointed out has the Jerrican icon on him. His special ability is to extend your range.

TorpX 07-24-13 10:54 PM

I've never had range issues like this, so I can only make an educated guess. The change in range from ~21,000@9 kts. to ~9,000@15 kts. doesn't strike me as implausible. I'm not saying it is on the money in terms of the physics, but it could be. So that leaves the question of why did you have a range of ~33,000 nm range at the start. Certainly, that is very high.
  1. you have ruled out "special ability" crew
  2. you have ruled out weather changes
  3. you have ruled out momentum
  4. you have ruled out ocean currents (they aren't modeled in game)
  5. you have ruled out battery charging
So what's left? I think this is due to the way Ducimus modded TMO. I don't remember all the details, but I recall he had to increase the range for fleetboats so we could duplicate the patrols in the logs. Why exactly did he increase the range, you might ask? The answer is that if he hadn't, you would not be able to transit from Pearl to Empire waters, at ahead standard, have a reasonable amount to burn on patrol, and get back home. The distance from Pearl to Tokyo, in game, is greater than the distance, in real life. This is because of the flat earth model used in the game. Ducimus realized that if you cruise at 9 kts., this would give you a gross range advantage, but his philosophy was to enable you to transit to your patrol area at the customary ahead standard, patrol at 2/3, then return home at ahead standard. He left it up to the player how to use it. The game doesn't model the engines/fuel/batteries well enough to get the accurate results we desire. He had to compromise. Also, I recall, he was uncertain about what the actual ranges of the various boats were. (That is, did the listed ranges reflect using some of the MBT's for fuel, as was often done.)

c13Garrison 07-24-13 11:25 PM

I think to try to clear up a potential point of confusion, Mr Partington (as is his plan) is pointing out that you have a special ability that is Not listed under Special Abilities.

That being said, given I am a very junior contributor & I don't want to step on anyone else's toes, so I will refrain from trying to figure things which I lack the credentials to dissect. :D ...but Torp's explanation makes a ton of sense.

BrucePartington 07-25-13 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by c13Garrison (Post 2090004)
I think to try to clear up a potential point of confusion, Mr Partington (as is his plan) is pointing out that you have a special ability that is Not listed under Special Abilities.

That being said, given I am a very junior contributor & I don't want to step on anyone else's toes, so I will refrain from trying to figure things which I lack the credentials to dissect. :D ...but Torp's explanation makes a ton of sense.

It is a Special Ability, just not one you can call on for temporary boost. It is always available/active.
However I am uncertain whether it is active all the time or only during that crewman's watch.
I'd imagine that when I'm asleep I cannot contribute with my special skills, unless snoring furiously is considered a special skill.

However, Torp's explanation may well be the right one. Makes perfect sense to me, since such a huge increase in range is most likely to be due to editing of some ***.cfg files.

I see some folks know exactly where my screen name comes from. One of my favourite episodes, btw.

c13Garrison 07-25-13 02:21 AM

Huge Jeremy Brett fan, God rest his soul. -and Holmes in general. :up:

Bubblehead1980 07-25-13 03:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TorpX (Post 2089994)
I've never had range issues like this, so I can only make an educated guess. The change in range from ~21,000@9 kts. to ~9,000@15 kts. doesn't strike me as implausible. I'm not saying it is on the money in terms of the physics, but it could be. So that leaves the question of why did you have a range of ~33,000 nm range at the start. Certainly, that is very high.
  1. you have ruled out "special ability" crew
  2. you have ruled out weather changes
  3. you have ruled out momentum
  4. you have ruled out ocean currents (they aren't modeled in game)
  5. you have ruled out battery charging
So what's left? I think this is due to the way Ducimus modded TMO. I don't remember all the details, but I recall he had to increase the range for fleetboats so we could duplicate the patrols in the logs. Why exactly did he increase the range, you might ask? The answer is that if he hadn't, you would not be able to transit from Pearl to Empire waters, at ahead standard, have a reasonable amount to burn on patrol, and get back home. The distance from Pearl to Tokyo, in game, is greater than the distance, in real life. This is because of the flat earth model used in the game. Ducimus realized that if you cruise at 9 kts., this would give you a gross range advantage, but his philosophy was to enable you to transit to your patrol area at the customary ahead standard, patrol at 2/3, then return home at ahead standard. He left it up to the player how to use it. The game doesn't model the engines/fuel/batteries well enough to get the accurate results we desire. He had to compromise. Also, I recall, he was uncertain about what the actual ranges of the various boats were. (That is, did the listed ranges reflect using some of the MBT's for fuel, as was often done.)

I remember Ducimus including default range of fleetboats includes fuel in the ballast tanks.The special ability officer who increased range was disabled, so when you depart, you can assume your boat is filled to the max with diesel. The ranges are pretty accurate from what I've read and when he made it so can transit to and from patrol area at ahead standard, i was so thankful, it was ridiculous having to transit around the pacific at what was tantamount to harbor speed, yea another failure of stock.

Azgrim 07-25-13 04:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrucePartington (Post 2089986)
I was referring to the extended fuel range issue. The officer I pointed out has the Jerrican icon on him. His special ability is to extend your range.

I think, you've got confused because of icon difference, but it's the same person:
http://s7.postimg.org/oumcvme1z/diff.jpg

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrucePartington (Post 2090054)
It is a Special Ability, just not one you can call on for temporary boost. It is always available/active.
However I am uncertain whether it is active all the time or only during that crewman's watch.
I'd imagine that when I'm asleep I cannot contribute with my special skills, unless snoring furiously is considered a special skill.

However, Torp's explanation may well be the right one. Makes perfect sense to me, since such a huge increase in range is most likely to be due to editing of some ***.cfg files.

OK, but why thiese ***.cfg files. were edited only on second patrol? As I said previously the range issue/question/bug appeared not from the very start of campaign, but only at second patrol.
As for crewmember, I don't know, I didn't do any signifficant changes in crew (only few seamen in-out) and didn't install any upgrades. Only gave a few medals :D to my conning men, as they did very well last patrol.
The only variant of how this change can arise from a special ability, is that it's hidden and not listed. But hey, +50%???


Quote:

Originally Posted by TorpX (Post 2089994)
So that leaves the question of why did you have a range of ~33,000 nm range at the start. Certainly, that is very high.

Not at the start, to be exact. At second patrol. At first patrol it was ~22.000

Quote:

Originally Posted by TorpX (Post 2089994)
So what's left? I think this is due to the way Ducimus modded TMO. I don't remember all the details, but I recall he had to increase the range for fleetboats so we could duplicate the patrols in the logs. Why exactly did he increase the range, you might ask? The answer is that if he hadn't, you would not be able to transit from Pearl to Empire waters, at ahead standard, have a reasonable amount to burn on patrol, and get back home. The distance from Pearl to Tokyo, in game, is greater than the distance, in real life. This is because of the flat earth model used in the game. Ducimus realized that if you cruise at 9 kts., this would give you a gross range advantage, but his philosophy was to enable you to transit to your patrol area at the customary ahead standard, patrol at 2/3, then return home at ahead standard. He left it up to the player how to use it. The game doesn't model the engines/fuel/batteries well enough to get the accurate results we desire. He had to compromise. Also, I recall, he was uncertain about what the actual ranges of the various boats were. (That is, did the listed ranges reflect using some of the MBT's for fuel, as was often done.)

Mr. TorpX, please accept my huge gratitude. You've answered many questions, that I've had in mind about overall mechanics of this game and the TMO fuel system.
I remember the first time I played SH4. It was 1.4 version with mo MODs. I went from Pearl Harbour at Full spead... but after patrol I couldn't get home, because of lack of fuel. It really pissed me off, I didn't know many things about the game at that time, and there was no MRCS button to give me some understanding of fuel consumption on various speeds. I've red the internet, it said, that my subs have 10000 range, but at map I've calculated, that it's just not enough! So I've quit playing at that time. Silly me.
When playing now, my observations revealed the best speed for far travel is 9 knots, so I did the following every patrol:
-Always traveled at 9 kts speed, and patrolled at 1/3 speed.
-After going from PH. First of all I headed to Midway, and refueled there, which gave me another "stratch" to patrol area.
As a result, I never had a fuel issue, and I've settled at this "speed tactic". But here a new question has arised. What do crewmen eat and drink?
As I heard in one video about US submariners, sometimes they had to spend up to 70 days in sea. So by that I judged, that time of my patrol is not intended to exceed this limit but it still did, and my "sense of realisticness" suffered of it.
But now! You've explained so much to me! Thank you kindly, sir.
Now I will travel at standard speed, and patrol at 2/3, and my beloved crew will get to port sooner. :()1:

As for the issue this thread is all about (why at first patrol - 22000 and at second patrol - 33000) this question is of last concern to me now.

Thank you.:subsim:


Quote:

Originally Posted by c13Garrison (Post 2090004)
I think to try to clear up a potential point of confusion, Mr Partington (as is his plan) is pointing out that you have a special ability that is Not listed under Special Abilities.

And this crewman with special ability just sneaked into my sub at port before I left for my second patrol, and now is hiding somewhere. :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by c13Garrison (Post 2090004)
That being said, given I am a very junior contributor & I don't want to step on anyone else's toes, so I will refrain from trying to figure things which I lack the credentials to dissect. :D ...but Torp's explanation makes a ton of sense.

Yes, TorpX have cleared everything to me. :salute:

Offtop:
Does your computer show the text of my signature below? =)

merc4ulfate 07-25-13 07:26 AM

Now I see what you have done. Why do you not run the TMO 2-5 small patch? Just curious.

The way the game code is set if you make manual speed settings this will calculate different ranges than if you hit a preset standardized speed settings on the telegraph.

Each telegraph setting is preset and calculated but when you make manual changes the game will calculate it different.

Setting your speed at 7, 8, 9, knots will cause separate calculations but once you hit Ahead Standard you have now switch the telegraph from manual settings to a game code preset which will not be calculated the same.

The telegraph can be operated in one of two ways but not both at the same time. One telegraph is for manually setting the speed the other telegraph are preset game coded speeds. There are small variations in manual calculations and the preset so your to be congratulated for finding a technical flaw in the game code.

Azgrim 07-25-13 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by merc4ulfate (Post 2090191)
Now I see what you have done. Why do you not run the TMO 2-5 small patch? Just curious.

Downloaded it already. Just after you asked. :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by merc4ulfate (Post 2090191)
The way the game code is set if you make manual speed settings this will calculate different ranges than if you hit a preset standardized speed settings on the telegraph.

Each telegraph setting is preset and calculated but when you make manual changes the game will calculate it different.

Setting your speed at 7, 8, 9, knots will cause separate calculations but once you hit Ahead Standard you have now switch the telegraph from manual settings to a game code preset which will not be calculated the same.

The telegraph can be operated in one of two ways but not both at the same time. One telegraph is for manually setting the speed the other telegraph are preset game coded speeds. There are small variations in manual calculations and the preset so your to be congratulated for finding a technical flaw in the game code.

I didn't know, that I found such flaw. I'm glad. :ping:
As for telegraph usage... After what TorpX has told, I don't set speed manually that often now.
Just use ` 1 2 3 4 5 buttons. :cool:

How did you find out about the difference in calculation between setting speed manually and using the telegraph by hotkeys?


By the way. Have anyone noticed, how time compression affects detection?
From this thread
Quote:

Originally Posted by Azgrim (Post 2090214)
I'll tell you what I think.
5 years have passed, but still Time compression affects detection.
Today's example:
I was DCed by DD, finally he was off me, going away slowly.
He was about 1000 yds away/ I was at FULL STOP.
I've turned on the time compression, for about x64.
And that DD immediately turned around and sunk me with first depth charge.
How do you like that? I was at full stop!


BrucePartington 07-25-13 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by c13Garrison (Post 2090075)
Huge Jeremy Brett fan, God rest his soul. -and Holmes in general. :up:

Indeed.
Edward Hardwicke passed away recently too.
Jeremy was greatly admired and respect by everyone. He was very meticulous about everything on set. I never found a flaw, even after seeing every episode several times.

c13Garrison 07-25-13 11:14 AM

@Azgrim

It shows the Cyrillic phrase and a merry chap with the tiny accordion, yes. :)

What is the translation?

@Bruce

Didn't know about Hardwicke. My elder daughter loves those 80's Holmes episodes, I bought them for her for her 8th or 9th birthday. She's 17 now, we watch them frequently. The first 2 seasons are perfection, unfortunately the tragic passing of Jeremy's wife clearly affected his entire well being. Still, his older, more "burdened by life" Holmes is still worthy of high praise.

Azgrim 07-25-13 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by c13Garrison (Post 2090355)
@Azgrim

It shows the Cyrillic phrase and a merry chap with the tiny accordion, yes. :)

What is the translation?

These are words from Russian (or Soviet) song, written in early 1940s.
It's about tankman, which was KIA.

This line says "And bride will never know, what was the tankman's end".

This song was resung in 2000s by one Russian band, they altered words a little, and the line became a bit ambiguous:
"And bride will never know the lad's end":oops: (I think you've understood)

So when tankman turned to just a lad, this line got close to marine theme, so I like it as my signature here, especially with a "merry chap with tiny accordeon" :D

Two more parallels:
1) I've graduated from music school, played the accordeon when I was 12.
2) My grandfather was a T-34 tank driver at WW2.

P.S.
Found a video of this song. If someone is interested. :roll:
Some of the pictures in it are really touching.


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