The world is a very dirty nasty place. Many Citizens can live their lives happy; partly because they don't know what is really happening concerning foreign policy.

I wish the world was nice and clean with the good guys wearing white hats and the bad guys wearing black hats. Everyone wears grey hats. Some a little lighter, some a little darker, but all grey. One person's good guy is another person's bad guy. Most people are both good and bad at the same time, depending on viewpoint.

I would like to point out that NSA is not some nameless/faceless government entity. It is staffed with almost a million American citizens. Each of which have the same values, ethics, and concerns as many other citizens.

Almost a million people who every day they are at work are asking themselves, "Are we operating within the law".

Almost a million people who every year raise concerns through appropriate channels where issues are investigated and changes are made.

Almost a million people tasked with a very difficult job, in a difficult environment, doing their duty to the best of their ability, every day.

Almost a million people who are Americans and are just as concerned with civil rights as we are.. after all, they are citizens too.

I know that it is trendy to have the attitude that the "government" is corrupt. Everyone's doing it. I guess all the cool kids can feel superior with their "knowledge" about what happens in the government.

But the government is made up of US citizens... just like us. There are good ones, and bad ones... just like us. And imperfect ones... just like us.

Same values, same concerns, same desires... We are, after all, a government made up of the people. And some of these people have a very difficult job they do and they do it with professionalism.... every day.

And then there are those who are not professional.... just like us.

Saying something is "trendy" is a good way to dismiss it. Is the government corrupt? If so, should we do nothing about it?

This isn't about the government being corrupt. It's about a part of the government conducting an activity that may be illegal. Did it? I admit that I don't know. That said, should we not investigate it because the belief that it is is "trendy"? More to the point, this particular thread isn't even about the government directly, it's about the man who exposed that activity. Is he a criminal? Is he a hero?

What would have happened, if a member of the Chinese secret service had unfold unbelievable international cyber surveillance details of the Chinese government and would now try to hide from China police?
I guess he would already sit in a CIA jet heading to the United Stasi of America, to meet senators and members of the congress, shaking hands for Faux News, calling him a hero of the free world, who fights for democracy and freedom etc.
And of course the land of the free would deny any help to bring him back to China, were he would have to face repression, unfair treatment, solitary confinement and other forms of torture. Well, in the sight of Guantanamo and Mr. Manning I think Hong Kong, China and the Russians have a similar statement to deliver.

If only it were that simple, Platapus.

But what is being established, is like the government having a policeman living in your apartment, overhearing what you talk with your family and people on the phoned and at work, to protect other families from you trying to rob them or breaking into their houses.

What is being established is that foreigners in the all the world all get treated like criminals, needed to be assumed as guilty as long as their innocence is not proven. This is especially true for people travelling into the US. Business traffic has dropped into the Us, because many business people simply are pissed.

What is being established is a mentality training, to educate people to live naked and totally exposed to the government, without having any control or insight into government's intentions and activities. The government no longer fears the people: the people fear the government. The government is no longer liable and must account to the people, but the people are being held accountable by the government.

What is being established is a total digitalization of private sphere and private life, and the ability to just push a button to learn all and everything about people, no matter whether it is security relevant or not. Your whole existence potentially can be destroyed by somebody just accessing a database and using what he finds there about you. Your job. Yiur health insurance. The potential for abuse and blackmailing are endless. Its an abyss opening up there.

And lets face it, when it is in monopolistic businesses' profit interest or politicians' interest or finance offices or insurance'S interest to exploit data about you for their own advantage and intention, then they will do it. Because these are the people who write the laws, regulate how the laws are used and enforced, and additionally erode democracy from within.

I see the danger of terrorism. But that is an obvious evil, clear to identify when you see it, easy to point fingers on it and say "this is evil". But I fear far more the criminal organisations, the organised crimes that governments and their alliances with business lobbies - as well as especially in Europe left-leaning ideological crusaders - have turned into. Because if you point fingers at this and explain the evil in it, then it is much harder to seer for many people, and it will be the public opinion itself turning against you and declare you a phobic - an irrational, mentally ill person that is. Terrorism can be adapted to, can be fought against, can be identified. Political abuse and crime, and totalitarian control of everybody, the silent strangling of freedom - that is like a sling around your neck, and the more you fight against it, the more you get strangled.

Be an obedient dog then. Learn their rules, do not question them, sit still and dance stand on your back legs and wag your tail when they give you a hint. Those who be like that and accept their laws, have nothing to fear.

Only those not accepting the line around their neck and not accepting their rules imposed on them must worry about the law. Haven't we heard this argument not several times in this forum over the past couple for years, at various opportunities. I always get a shiver when I hear some mindless person saying that so carelessly. The speaker have forgotten what unbelievable cruelties and barbaric tyrannies have been made possible under the protection of this parole.

People have live din peace for too long, and in too much luxury and wealth. They take their freedom - or what they call that - for granted, and do not imagine circumstances where they need to defend it, or that it could be taken away from them. And in Europe, things are not getting better by the fact that it ids a social-psychological fact that people, the vast majority, do not crave so much for justice in it's real meaning, but that all and everybody must be made equal. If that equality is the equality of castrated slaves and can only be had at the cost of destroying those who perform and did better than the low and miserable average standard, then this is okay for most people there are as long as the guy living next door is not better off than themselves.

There is neither a reason nor an excuse to trust Western governments. And there are so very much very obvious reasons and arguments and facts recommending exactly the opposite: to not trust governments one bit.

If you think you must choose between two evils, you necessarily always will choose evil. And I put into question whether what many people now would argue to be the "lesser evil", indeed is a lesser evil at all over a longer period of time. I say: it is not.

And that is the cogent question.

It might be a good for the legality of the actions to be determined before people get spun up.

There are people posting on the Internets Tubes who seem to take it as demonstrated that the government violated laws. Let's answer that question first before we start declaring someone a hero or a baddie. :yep:

IMO legality is immaterial. Mass surveillance of the American people without their knowledge let alone permission is just plain wrong.

I agree.

But the only channel for that permission is the legislative process. Which says this is legal, and borne from legislation enacted by elected officials. The Supreme Court hadn't ruled on the Patriot Act (ugh, did it have to be called that?) so the legality isn't in question yet. The knowledge part is trickier. Legitimate security concerns run up against the obligation of transparency and I don't know how to square that circle.

Well maybe it'll make the SC now.

That's it. I'm emigrating to a tiny Micronesian island.

Go Snowden, go!

I mean like, what.
all he did is bring the news that big brother is indeed real... to the public.

Nothing wrong with that, if you ask me. I hope the man gets a face swap and a sex change, whatever it takes to slip off the Radar...
...and lives a tranquil and productive life without procecution.

Oh what a wicked web we weave when first we practice to deceive.

Eddie boy collected the web and placed it on black velvet for all to see.

The spider is pissed.:stare:

This crazy, well-armed, self proclaimed world police officer, brainwashed to be special, who cares about laws only if they fit to his intentions, who killed thousands of innocent civillians without being brought to justice, who spies upon everyone, including his own friends, is mad about a little boy who took a picture of his dealings, shows it to the public, and manages to hide from his revenge. He's embarrassed to be caught red handed, with his pants down and exposed to the laughter of the audience.
Expect cameras to be forbidden under the new "Patriots need no Cameras Act". Critics will be named unpatriotic, and those feeling free in their controlled surveillance will back it up, because it is the law.

In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

In a time of universal surveillance - telling the truth is a terroristic act.

Telling the truth seems to be a bad idea. We're joining the dark side.

Personally, I find that obvious frustration highly amusing. Obama want's Snowden..... badly. You pile this NSA/Prism scandal on top of the IRS and everything else that's going on, and it's makes Obama look even worse then he did previously. So of course Obama want's snowden's head on a pike (metaphorically speaking). On top of that, he's exposed a blatant power/control grab by our government, and that makes the political elite's unhappy panda's when us Plebians know what their up to. That constitution and bill of rights is a pesky thing for them.



I would agree with an opinion that the United States does not have the global power and influence it previously enjoyed, regardless if our politicians realize it or not. I think many nations may see the US as looking inward (as well we should), and less outward, and their actions or inactions on the global stage when dealing with the US may reflect that.


Personally, I draw a distinction between Snowden and Mannings.

Snowden:
Exposed a broad over reach of governmental power and in my opinion violations of our civil liberties. In specific the fourth amendment, and he did so without revealing too much in the way of speciifcs. Names, plans, internal memos' ,etc. He just gave a summary or general overview of what our government is doing to us behind our backs. In my opinion, not a traitor, because his motives seem to be keeping with ideals of freedom and liberty, which is what our country is founded upon. Now, I wouldn't call him a hero, but I would say he has the courage to follow his convictions.

But again I don't think he's a traitor because all he did was confirm that yes, big brother IS watching, something Terrorists already knew. Now our government want's his ass because he exposed them for what their doing, and their going to break out "the tools" to sweep him and everything he said under the rug because it is a threat to their power.

Mannings:
Gave away specifics. Names, time tables, memo's, plans, etc etc, documentation that has tactical value to insurgents, terrorists and the like. That's a traitor, to his brothers in arms, and his country.

Wrong in several ways.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_o2djiZOxyA

It's beginning to look like the Russians are resorting to the use of 'technicalities' to deny any involvement or knowledge of this gentleman's whereabouts.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23045790

Watch the POTUS get a big dose of medicine...
 

From Doctor Benjamin Carson. Director of Pediatric Neurosurgery at Johns-Hopkins.

Granted, this video has nothing to do with the topic at hand but, it does enumerate the reason/s for this subject even seeing the light of day.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNYAR7SZaIw