And who gave those orders that things where like that I wonder? Perhaps Stalin:hmmm:

Leningrad was one of those things that Stalin wanted to forget about after the war because in effect they where isolated and did things on their own he feared that the figureheads involved in Leningrad would challenge his control.

The true end for the Wehrmacht was the battle of Kursk that was their last offensive in the East (which of course failed). Stalingrad was a very important battle but it really was not the turning point from the respect of total control changing hands.After the lose at Kursk or Operation Zitadelle the Wehrmacht never again was able to stop a major Soviet.(stopping being forcing it to end and mount an effect counter attack).Had Operation Zitadelle been a success for the Germans it could have had serious effects on the Soviet morale and would have allowed the Germans the chance to close up the one salient that the Soviets had on the entire Eastern Front.

I must agree with Skybird though that the real reason behind Russia in modern times putting so much emphasis on Stalingrad is to further the cult of Stalin and therefore the cult of Putin.

Another very important battle that the Soviets lost but that greatly delayed the Wehrmacht is the greater Battle for Crimea and the Battle for Sevastopol in 1942 this was a very hard fought victory for the Wehrmacht and a costly defense for the Soviet solider but it did delay the Wehrmacht by several months and pulled resources away from other parts of the Easter Front for the Wehrmacht.Had Crimea and Sevastopol fallen with ease for the Wehrmacht it might have changed the outcome of the war.

Pathe Gazette newsreel...

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/on-this-day...2.html#lpd3hUb


David M Glantz now thinks if Stalin did not order that summer attack towards Kharkov the Russian's could have withdrawn and stopped the Germans outside Stalingrad. :hmmm:

At no point did Hitler's own tactics prove to be successful in the early years of the war. Hitler did not invent the doctrine, tactics or strategies that the German army used in the campaigns in Poland and France, nor did he personally plan any of those campaigns. In fact, the breakout from Sedan which caused the collapse of the French army during the Battle of France happened because Guderian and other commanders disobeyed his orders to halt.

Hitler's meddling in the the German army's operations during Case Blue directly contributed to the disaster Stalingrad became, and his mistakes were recognizable at the time. The brief diversion of the Fourth Panzer Army and most of the Sixth Army's armoured strength to the south in July, ordered personally by Hitler in direct opposition to the offensive's plan, which served only to slow the advance enough to give the Red Army enough time to prepare the defences of Stalingrad and bog down the German army in even more logistical problems is a good example, as is his refusal to give Paulus permission to break out of the pocket during Operation Winter Storm, against advice from Manstein, which arguably doomed that operation from the start.

Hitler once expressed his thoughts about his generals: "My generals should be like mad dogs wishing to fight and I should be the one to hold them back untill the right moment comes. But I see what ? Looks like I am the one who must force them to fight aganst their will"

Hitler was always in control of ww2 operations. He studied tactical maps and only discussed about offensive possibilites with his general. But the final tactical decission was from Hitler and generals had to make it happen.

Perhaps Chemberlain or Churchill always believed what general talk.
If Hitler as you say would of taken the advice from all his generals blindly for example chief of staff of German Army Franz Halder, Operation Fall Gelb would have started only in 1942. Hitler was disappointed with Halder's plan and initially reacted by deciding that the German army should attack early, ready or not, in the hope that Allied unpreparedness might bring about an easy victory.

Hitler was a great tactician from very begining, only in the later years of war he started to loose his grip on reality

:hmmm: I will admit that he had his moments, but whether that was by design or pure luck which was exploited by some good generals, but at the same time both he and Goering had some humongous clangers which cost them dearly. Dunkirk comes to mind, however that equally could have been a diplomatic move, but suffice to say that we can both agree on Hitlers mental deterioration as the war continued.
As a politician, his tactics were quite sound, I think we can agree on that, his use of propaganda and violence to achieve power, playing off people against each other whilst he picked up the pieces, well, if he had been as stupid as some people think he wouldn't have been able to make himself Fuhrer, nor bend the German armies loyalty toward him.
However, in his viewpoint towards the world, he was sorely deluded.

^^^^

Apparently his personal Doctor kept giving him more pills as the war progressed. The higher the dosage, the more defeats for the Germans.

A rather pointless debate IMHO :88)

Indeed.I have never been a fan of speculating what if when it comes to history.It is far more interesting to look at how wars/battles actually panned out people seem to forget that a war is never a sure thing.

That is why I mentioned the Battle for Sevastopol and Crimea this battle was much harder than the Axis had planned for and as a result units that would have
been in support of the 6th Army where diverted to the Crimea and that had a direct effect on the Battle for Stalingrad.The units diverted to the Crimea would have been covering the flanks of
the 6th Army instead they where hundreds of miles away.

What! He gambled on the fact Germany had to win the war by the end of 1942 knowing full well the Allies would be ready to take him on by then. Germany failed to go to full war time production until 1943 and by then it was too late.

Hitler had the gift of the gab and knew how to use it even when going down he could talk to his Generals to change their minds, granted it wore off them when they returned to their command posts. Reality defeated dreams.

That was a partially political move, Hitler didn't want the civilian population to feel the affects of war in the domestic market until as late as possible. He wanted the shops to continue to sell their wares and people to work in normal pastimes. This was probably from experience from the First World War where the later stages of the war saw Germans virtually starving as the Allied blockade bit hard. So, keep the people happy and well fed, keep them obedient with the sharp stick, and the propaganda machine feeds them good news all the time and they stay unquestioning, and those that do question are removed from the equation to stop it spreading.

Goering should have been sacked after his failed to supply the the troops trapped in Stalingrad and yet he went on to fail again this time in Tunisia.

Stalingrad: An Examination of Hitler's Decision to Airlift
http://www.joelhayward.org/stalingradairlift.htm

PDF
http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/a...97/hayward.pdf

I already mentioned that is too easy to judge about facts when you see the whole picture.

When Japan declared war to USA, Hitler didn't want to declare war to US, but I bet he did it just for solidarity to Japan. Germany and Japan before that signed a pact that if any of the nation would be attacked by USA or other country, the second would also declare war on the agressor. But History turned to be different. Japan itslef turned to be the agressor (because it was smartly provoked) so Germany had a full right to stay away from declaring the war, but for some reason it did not happened. That was unexpected to Hitler that Japan declare war on USA, everyone now knows that it was a fail, on the other hand Roosvelt also was a nasty old fart too.
For example what does it meant that american destroyer would escort british convoys ? I think it was the passive way of war declaration. But Roosvelt was so much into it not to show America as an agressor that he did everything, that AXIS powers would look like a bad guys to his own nation for one reason - to justify the USA engagement to WW2.

So from the times that Hitler spent in prison during which he wrote Mein Kampf passed to much time. Perhaps it was in his plans to end the war in 1942, but God always laughs at ppl who makes plans right ?

On the other hand those who just wish to marginalize Hitlers role as Leader of Germany before/during WW2 will always find something to hook on.

The Dark Charisma of Adolf Hitler
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AG4YMNg_viw

Three part documentary based on Laurence Rees book.

Link to the book
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dark-Charism...9895415&sr=1-1

If this is another documentry about Hitlers biography so I already know it by heart.

Watching anyway.

Edited: too lazy to watch all three parts, about something that is well known to me.

if there is something you think you found me unaware off please post a time line of the video and the part of this documentry.

Yeah, but if we didn't have pointless debates there'd be something like two threads on this forum. I tried once to find an argumentative thread that was not pointless. I failed.