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-   -   Fiscal Cliff.. (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=200815)

AVGWarhawk 12-23-12 03:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mookiemookie (Post 1981873)

I still moved my entire 401k to cash for now, just in case.
Why do that? Taxes on capital gains, dividends and estates are going to skyrocket. Hence the sell off of stocks now for reduced taxes. What 401k program do you have that allows you to liquidate to cash, hide it and reinvest later without penalty? Did you initiate a loan on it?

TorpX 12-23-12 03:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo (Post 1981800)
Platapus - in a sense though - isn't less spending - whether on military or social programs - exactly that? Less Government spending equates to less governmental control - over lives, the economy, or the world itself?

This really is where the "debt" issue ends up going off track. JimBuna asked about how much taxes were needed. Why is it somehow not reasonable to expect Government to "live within its means"?
This is the most sensible thing I've read all year.

+1 :up:

kraznyi_oktjabr 12-23-12 05:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo (Post 1981800)
Platapus - in a sense though - isn't less spending - whether on military or social programs - exactly that? Less Government spending equates to less governmental control - over lives, the economy, or the world itself?

This really is where the "debt" issue ends up going off track. JimBuna asked about how much taxes were needed. Why is it somehow not reasonable to expect Government to "live within its means"?
Reality check:

What makes politician look good?

Creating jobs to his/her district/state.

What is easiest way to do that?

Funding government program. Such as new weapons system, naval warship etc...

Jimbuna 12-23-12 05:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mookiemookie (Post 1981873)
There's going to be an 11th hour deal that no one is going to be happy with and the whole "fiscal cliff" thing will blow over.

I still moved my entire 401k to cash for now, just in case.
Wise choice...I'd have done the same :sunny:

AVGWarhawk 12-23-12 05:56 PM
What choice is that? Personally I would like to know how 'moving' a 401K is accomplished without penalty? Move it where? Sell off shaky investments? One can not simply cash out without a substantial tax unless you are of retirement age. A tax of upwards of 30% for early widthdrawl. So really, where is the 401K moved? Why aren't thousands doing it? Why aren't investment advisors doing this automatically for their investors?

Armistead 12-23-12 08:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk (Post 1981961)
What choice is that? Personally I would like to know how 'moving' a 401K is accomplished without penalty? Move it where? Sell off shaky investments? One can not simply cash out without a substantial tax unless you are of retirement age. A tax of upwards of 30% for early widthdrawl. So really, where is the 401K moved? Why aren't thousands doing it? Why aren't investment advisors doing this automatically for their investors?
I can change my investments within my 401K once a year, simply change how it's invested from safe to risky, but it's always drawn 10% or more, except for 3 of the last 5 years. However, you certainly can't cash out before retirement without taxes and early withdrawal "fines" unless emergency medical, school, etc..still paying large taxes on it. You can usually move it to another retirement account. 401K's were designed for the rich, but came retirement plans for the middle class, if you don't plan on using it as an retirement account, better to invest elsewhere.

Bubblehead Nuke 12-23-12 09:29 PM
We will go over the fiscal cliff. No doubts in my mind.

The Republicans can NOT vote to raise taxes. That would be political suicide.

The Democrats can not to cut spending. The powers that be will cut them off if social programs get cut.

So.. we go over the cliff.

AUTOMATICALLY taxes go up. Period. Spending gets cut . Period. Nobody has to vote for ANYTHING.

Nobody can be held accountable to the 'You voted for XXXX'. You went against the party line.. No finger pointing, finger shaking, etc. All they have to do is stand their respective 'My way is better than your way stance'.

Now, once all this has happened, they can vote to LOWER taxes on specific groups without reprisals. The 'Rich' will be taxed more. They can also vote to INCREASE spending on specific programs so the really needed social programs do not get cut.

Everyone comes out saying that they voted for the things that they 'stood for'. Nobody loses any 'face' or can be called out that they are 'not on board'.

This is a lame way to fix spending without coming out and saying what really needed to be done.

AVGWarhawk 12-23-12 09:32 PM
Hence my guestion. I already invest conservatively in my 401k. I can't move it anywhere other than in different funds or cash out. It is still out there and can take a hit. There is not much moving one can do to protect against loss. Maybe minimize loss but certainly always a risk. The real issue with 401k is possibly new legislation that reduces the amount one can put in the account. This frees up taxable income. Nice huh? Plus, raising the tax when money is taken for retirement. Honestly, we get screwed by taxes no matter what we spend or save. It is a crock of crap watching these stuffed shirts play for weeks on end with our daily lives and our retirement lives to come concerning taxes. The entire lot suck.

AVGWarhawk 12-23-12 09:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubblehead Nuke (Post 1982038)
We will go over the fiscal cliff. No doubts in my mind.

The Republicans can NOT vote to raise taxes. That would be political suicide.

The Democrats can not to cut spending. The powers that be will cut them off if social programs get cut.

So.. we go over the cliff.

AUTOMATICALLY taxes go up. Period. Spending gets cut . Period. Nobody has to vote for ANYTHING.

Nobody can be held accountable to the 'You voted for XXXX'. You went against the party line.. No finger pointing, finger shaking, etc. All they have to do is stand their respective 'My way is better than your way stance'.

Now, once all this has happened, they can vote to LOWER taxes on specific groups without reprisals. The 'Rich' will be taxed more. They can also vote to INCREASE spending on specific programs so the really needed social programs do not get cut.

Everyone comes out saying that they voted for the things that they 'stood for'. Nobody loses any 'face' or can be called out that they are 'not on board'.

This is a lame way to fix spending without coming out and saying what really needed to be done.

My mind believes they want to go over. The influx of cash would be like winning the lottery. Taxes could be at the same level as the Clinton era.

Takeda Shingen 12-23-12 09:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubblehead Nuke (Post 1982038)
We will go over the fiscal cliff. No doubts in my mind.

The Republicans can NOT vote to raise taxes. That would be political suicide.

The Democrats can not to cut spending. The powers that be will cut them off if social programs get cut.

So.. we go over the cliff.

AUTOMATICALLY taxes go up. Period. Spending gets cut . Period. Nobody has to vote for ANYTHING.

Nobody can be held accountable to the 'You voted for XXXX'. You went against the party line.. No finger pointing, finger shaking, etc. All they have to do is stand their respective 'My way is better than your way stance'.

Now, once all this has happened, they can vote to LOWER taxes on specific groups without reprisals. The 'Rich' will be taxed more. They can also vote to INCREASE spending on specific programs so the really needed social programs do not get cut.

Everyone comes out saying that they voted for the things that they 'stood for'. Nobody loses any 'face' or can be called out that they are 'not on board'.

This is a lame way to fix spending without coming out and saying what really needed to be done.
Pretty much. The problem is so big that we will need both spending cuts and tax incrases to fix it. Tax increases will have to be across the board, not just one segment of society. Spending cuts will have to be in both social programs and defense. It is a painful pill to swallow, but it is necessary. After all, you can only cut so much and you can only tax so much. However, none of our leaders have that 'Gerald Ford' courage to do the right thing in that regard. Yes, it will likely mean the end of their political career, but aren't they elected to that office to make the tough decisions? Is that not what we expect?

Instead we get this 'fiscal cliff' stuff, as you said above.

AVGWarhawk 12-23-12 09:42 PM
The economy will grind to a halt. Hmmmmm......not much war going on. Where are the billions that were pumped into Iraq going?

Armistead 12-23-12 10:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk (Post 1982040)
Hence my guestion. I already invest conservatively in my 401k. I can't move it anywhere other than in different funds or cash out. It is still out there and can take a hit. There is not much moving one can do to protect against loss. Maybe minimize loss but certainly always a risk. The real issue with 401k is possibly new legislation that reduces the amount one can put in the account. This frees up taxable income. Nice huh? Plus, raising the tax when money is taken for retirement. Honestly, we get screwed by taxes no matter what we spend or save. It is a crock of crap watching these stuffed shirts play for weeks on end with our daily lives and our retirement lives to come concerning taxes. The entire lot suck.
The risk is there, Americans lost billions in 401 savings the first year the housing market, bank fiasco crash. Those in high risk really took a hit.
Even when you have your money in high risk, the powers that be that invest your money can choose what risky stocks they will purchase, you can win or lose... I lost about 3 years gain in one year, about 60 K...that hurt. Obvious I would've moved it, but again, I only get that choice once a year.

mookiemookie 12-24-12 12:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk (Post 1981961)
What choice is that? Personally I would like to know how 'moving' a 401K is accomplished without penalty? Move it where? Sell off shaky investments? One can not simply cash out without a substantial tax unless you are of retirement age. A tax of upwards of 30% for early widthdrawl. So really, where is the 401K moved? Why aren't thousands doing it? Why aren't investment advisors doing this automatically for their investors?
You have fund choices within your 401k. You can choose to allocate your contributions however you choose within the 401k, be it 10% in the XYZ bond fund, 30% in the stock growth fund, etc.

You may also reallocate your invested dollars as you see fit. You're not taking any money out, so there's no penalties. I simply told the fund manager to liquidate my bond and stock mutual fund holdings and moved them into the money market fund (i.e. "cash") within my 401k. Now they do put restrictions on how much you can move your money around. Most funds will not let you move your money back in within 30 days of a withdrawal, but I'm fine with letting it sit in cash while this whole soap opera plays out. Once a deal gets done, I'll move it back into the funds where I had it invested beforehand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk (Post 1982040)
Hence my guestion. I already invest conservatively in my 401k. I can't move it anywhere other than in different funds or cash out. It is still out there and can take a hit. There is not much moving one can do to protect against loss. Maybe minimize loss but certainly always a risk.
I guarantee you that one of your fund choices is a money market fund. Put it there. That's pretty much as good as cash.

Armistead 12-24-12 03:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mookiemookie (Post 1982082)
You have fund choices within your 401k. You can choose to allocate your contributions however you choose within the 401k, be it 10% in the XYZ bond fund, 30% in the stock growth fund, etc.

You may also reallocate your invested dollars as you see fit. You're not taking any money out, so there's no penalties. I simply told the fund manager to liquidate my bond and stock mutual fund holdings and moved them into the money market fund (i.e. "cash") within my 401k. Now they do put restrictions on how much you can move your money around. Most funds will not let you move your money back in within 30 days of a withdrawal, but I'm fine with letting it sit in cash while this whole soap opera plays out. Once a deal gets done, I'll move it back into the funds where I had it invested beforehand.

I guarantee you that one of your fund choices is a money market fund. Put it there. That's pretty much as good as cash.
Yea, but most only allow 1 or two movements a year. I didn't know any existed that let you move your funds on the fly, but I suspect they exist.

AVGWarhawk 12-24-12 06:19 AM
Got it Mookie, not the impression I got when you stated you moved it. Moving it comes with rules and strings. Amount one can swing. Money is off the market. Sounded like you have a huge mattress at home. :haha:

A lot are letting it sit as cash. Particularly stock portfolio. Investors want to beat the impending tax hikes. George Lucas sold his company to Disney this year for a reason. Millions of them.

Edit: I forgot to add....the 401K is going to be a juicy target for this administration.


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