And I've never said otherwise. It was the idea and the ideal that set us apart. The country itself, and the people, are no different than any other country or people. What makes the difference is what we strive for. It started with the Enlightenment in England and France. They thought it, we put it into motion and then it spread back across to Europe. Today we in the Western World (and parts of the Eastern) believe in the same things. No, we don't practice it as well as we should, but we don't practice it any less, or any more, than we ever did.

Perhaps what the US needs is a good dose of humility?

My thoughts exactly, only concerning Finland and not America. I see this especially on the Independence day every year. "Patriotism" is boasting how great our former generations were (understandable to a point on that day, of course), but never asking: "Hey guys, how could we improve this?"

Instead we often ask: "This sucks, why doesn't anyone do anything about it?" That's in general a big problem at least with us Finns. We are always talking about: "Yeah, I'm in...if someone else goes first". It's all empty talk in the Internet and in the magazines, but when it would be time to do something, "it's raining", "I have to work", "My favorite soap opera is on TV"...

Commenting the thread title a little, I have always had a problem understanding the concept of "the greatest country in the world", no matter which country we are talking about. I like Finland. It's a fine country. But is it the best? I have lived abroad and seen that some things are better there, some are worse and some are just different. I see no reason to call any country I have lived in "the best". Whenever I'm in one, I miss some things from some of the others. I suppose I could start ranking them, but I'd be more interested in bringing the good things from one country to another instead of that.

That was the idea behind the melting pot. The best of all worlds right here. If I may....

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
Emma Lazarus, 1883

And we still have the best of everything right here. But, all these comments about not calling one country or another the greatest... I can see the point of that. But it's part of the problem. Political correctness has run a muck. We don't want to strive to achieve the great deeds we used to because were too worried about offending some other country that can't accomplish the same thing. We're too worried about our image in the rest of the worlds eyes instead of worrying about being able to look at ourselves as a nation and focusing on how it makes us feel about ourselves. We've gone astray. We're so concerned about world opinion that we've quit focusing on what's wrong here and what we need to continue to strive to achieve. We built the Hoover Dam. People of all nationalities united together as Americans. Germans, Greeks, Irish, Chinese, Russians, French, British... We dug the Erie Canal. The Panama Canal. Mount Rushmore. We flew the first airplane. We put a man on the moon. We freed the slaves. (The confederacy broke away from the Union so it wasn't the United States.) The Trans-Continental Railroad. You know, this is turning into a speech but, I feel obliged now... We called the WWII generation the greatest generation. There are stories of men committing suicide here in the States because the Army, Marines, etc. wouldn't take them. I don't believe in suicide, but I can't help but think about stories like that. My Grandfather was part of that generation. He was a Marine on Guam. http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/7640/grandpaz.jpgI listen to his stories of what our country was like during that time, and listen in awe. I graduated high school in 2005. A week later I was in San Diego, California at the Marine Corps Recruit Depot. Yeah we all talk about a golden age. I joined for that reason. I wanted to feel that. Like I was part of something great. And I did feel that way, no matter what anyone says about Iraq, which is where I was deployed for 18 months. And I did feel that way. I was part of something great. But then I look at all the other people my age. Jobless... And proud of it. They've been to prison and talk like it was an accomplishment. Made them tough. Ha. They don't vote. They don't care. They wear their pants sagging down their hips, have haircuts that make you think what the hell kinda deranged mind cut that for you that way. Ball caps sideways. Throwing up their "yo's" and hand signs because they think it looks and sounds cool, but people like me look at them and wonder if we should call 911 because we can't tell if that's their way of communication or if they're epileptic and having a spas attack. Like Ducimus kinda said, our deeds make us great. But when our deeds involve acting like morons, not voting, or voting without having the slightest clue about what we're even voting for, we're just voting because Bobby and Kenna said they were voting for this guy without any explanation as to why.. Hell, I mentioned men on the moon... We don't even have a space program any more. We hitch a ride with the Russian's. Team USA at the Olympics wears uniforms made in China... Grandpa told me stories of a time where if it didn't say made in the USA it was considered complete and utter crap. We've lost our way. Speaking of World War II vets... That reminds me of another great quote by a great American... One of the best... Who loved America so much that the only income he asked for as President... So concerned with service to this great nation, instead of this great nation serving his status... He requested a dollar a year.... "Ask not what your country can do for you! Ask what you can do for your country." John Fitzgerald Kennedy
That's the problem with my generation. Lots of unemployed because of choice. Not because the jobs aren't there. They are there. I work in a radiator shop. Wasn't the only place I submitted an application. I applied at O'Reilly Auto Parts as a store clerk for minimum wage, a feed lot to shovel cow crap for minimum wage, and as a street sweeper and garbage man for the city. I didn't care what it was I did or for whom I did it. I sure as hell wasn't going to live off welfare. To this day, I have never received a dollar of unemployment, and have never drawn welfare. That's the problem with my generation. Most of my neighbors do. The jobs are there. But its a small town I live in, and I know my neighbors because they are people I went to school with. People my age. They refuse to work. Never worked a day in their life. All 23, 24, 25 years old. You know what the screwed up part is? They are living better than me... On welfare. Oh well though. Won't stop me from working. I'll make my living the same way most others who came here have, since the 1600's.

You are not the first one I have heard saying that. And don't represent even one of the first five nationalities I have heard that from.

Do not let the dirt bags get you down so much 19Herr_Rapp86 believe it or not they have always been around every generation has them which just proves that when push comes to shove the people that are worth a damn do answer the call.

So what if some moron is proud of having been in prison? That just shows you that he is a piece of (not allowed on this forum) same for the people that are proud of not having a job.Maybe they seem like the majority but they are not in my experience most people I have met show a lot of respect for good values a lot of people do care about what happens in this country.I hear plenty of people talk about the cuts to NASA.I see a lot of young kids wanting to join the military.

I agree with admiring the deeds of previous generations but everyone looks at the WWII generation with rose tinted glasses they did great things but they had their fair share of problems look at how blacks where treated they fought for a country where they where really second class citizens Tuskegee Airmen officers in the US Army where not allowed to set one foot into any Officers Club and they did not have a segregated one to go to.

People ignore more or less the guys that fought in Korea and even more Vietnam we call WWII fighters the bravest yet men that fought in Vietnam spent nearly 180 day per year in combat compared to the average of 10 days per year I call the person that spent 180 days in combat damn brave if he was lucky enough to survive.


As a Marine you must not have hung out with too many of your fellow Marines(or you socialized with Marines having the same tastes surely you saw others in the barracks though) I take it my brother is a Marine Captain and some guys in his unit dress off duty in the manner that you dislike (short of the pants to knees) you cant always judge a book by its cover.In my experience in the USAF it was the same way some guys did their own thing off duty maybe they did not dress the way I dressed it did not make them bad people a man could wear a sharp 3 piece suit and still be a complete turd.

How very true. Even crap looks good in a pretty wrapper. Lol. I admire those Vietnam and Korea guys. A lot. They didn't have the cheering crowds to come home to like WWII. They got the "baby-killer" remarks and spit on. And you're right. I hung out with the guys just like me. Don't get me wrong. I know there are plenty of great people out there. And they outweigh the bad ones. By exponential proportions. What we need is a leader, though. All the guys I talk to that are like me, that think like me, and all the other American's like us out there, all say the same thing. We're ready to unite toward a common goal again. We're ready to go to Mars, or cure cancer, or go on a manufacturing spree. Something. We need a leader though. Someone in a position of power (President, Congress, somebody) to give us the means to do so instead of all these mandates and restrictions. We're choking our selves to death here with the people we put in office. We, as in the working class, can't make lemonade out of grape nuts.

I think those numbers are probably skewed by the many more people involved in supporting WW2s maximum war effort compared to that in the limited wars of Korea and Vietnam. Of course combat arms troops like armor and infantry spent far more time in combat in WW2 than just 10 days a year and their tours were mostly "for the duration" instead of just 12 months.

Also I read somewhere awhile back that the mortality rate in WW2 was 1 in 15, just like it had been in all our wars since the Revolution, whereas during Korea and Vietnam, and every war since, it was about 1 in 1500 due to advances in battlefield medicine and the helicopter evac.

This is not to disrespect the bravery of Korea and Vietnam vets. They fought their wars with the same amount of courage and skill that our soldiers and sailors have always displayed and continue to do so to this day.

Personally I'm content to let the WW2 vets have their accolades. They'll be all gone soon enough and it will be the Korea and Vietnam vets turn to be feted.

America not perfect but i still got freedom there alot of places that dont and i wouldnt move to them but here a quote from a John Wayne movie basic tells how i feel.

Republic. I like the sound of the word. It means people can live free, talk free, go or come, buy or sell, be drunk or sober, however they choose. Some words give you a feeling. Republic is one of those words that makes me tight in the throat - the same tightness a man gets when his baby takes his first step or his first baby shaves and makes his first sound as a man. Some words can give you a feeling that makes your heart warm. Republic is one of those words.

America is not the greatest, but I think it's pretty darn good. I remember when I first saw that clip that the OP posted. I agree with the sentiment, but I also think that there's also a lot of great things about this country.

But then again, the idea of "American exceptionalism" is completely juvenile and ignorant.

That brings up the question: Which country is the greatest? And by what standard? No matter how you judge it you're going to get different answers, and every one of them will be biased. Fifty years ago it could be argued that America led the world in standard of living and education. Today there are other countries that have higher scores in both. This doesn't mean that America has gotten worse. In some respects we have, but again it depends on how you measure it.

I'm considered poor by some standards, yet I have amenities and opportunities that my grandfather couldn't even imagine. I still can't afford a car, but I regularly communicate with people all over the world instantly by simply typing on my personal computer. I can talk to people all over the world with my computer, and it doesn't cost me any extra. I don't eat steak for dinner every night, but I'm not exactly starving. My apartment has built in heating and cooling systems that would be the envy of the most famous kings and emperors.

Yes, there are parts of America where things could be better. There are also a lot of jobs advertised every day that go unfilled because people don't want to work at them. Overall I'd say we have it pretty good.

As you pointed out in your post, that would depend on the answer to two questions

1. What is the definition of "great"?
2. How can one measure the applicability to this definition?

My opinion: The United States can never be the greatest country in the world because we are a country with a history of extremes.

We have done some wonderful things and some terrible things
We have shown mercy and cruelty
We have shown inclusiveness and exclusivity
We have shown tolerance and intolerance

The list could go on for a while. Accepting the US is accepting our extremism history. All I can say is that I like living in the US. Despite the good, the bad, and the ugly, the US is still a pretty nice place to live.

I guess what I am saying is that I feel that the US is the greatest country for me. :up:

Oh, I love my country. I love the part of it I live in right now. I've see other parts I wouldn't mind living in, and I'm aware of other countries I wouldn't mind living in. I just don't accept the whole mindset of "Mine's the best."

Most every nation can say the same thing if you sit and think about well some lean more towards the terrible end than others. Nations are made up of people and people are flawed therefore any nation is going to have flaws to some extent.

Does a nation collectively learn from its mistakes or not is a more important measurement of course one must consider the fact that again any nation is filled with people who are flawed which means that a similar right or wrong might occur.

No monologue about America can hope to touch Peter Finch's in Network:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dib2-HBsF08