The greek lifestyle should not be Europes problems, (in reality we feel that crap in America) but the worry is on the stock market, not the general welfare of the people. Anytime rumblings from Greece or Europe happen the stock market takes a dump, which is bad for the elites who make all their money on the casino.

You wonder why the EU let them do it?

My educated opinion is...

It is because they wanted to create a global conglomerate that would overthrow the America/China/Russia worldwide trade dominance, spearheaded by Germany of course. Who remains one of the few staunch defenders of the failed Euro currency.

Europe (as a whole) may be small in relation to other (larger) countries, but they are vastly more idealogically fragmented. There is nothing culturally tying all the countries together, the allegiance is monetarily, which is great for the elites, but not for the "rubes" who keep the racket going.

Nonsense that is the not common Nazi BS that is flying from greece to germany becasue Germany is not enthusaistic about sinling billions and billions into a bottomless pit (but nevertheless we do). They compare the modern Federal Republic to the Third Reich and compare Merkel to Hitler and bring German polticians not folliwng their payment demands oint eh same lebel as war criminals and genocidal massmurderers.

Greece and Greeks do not wish to realise that in the very first theymuist pount finger at themnselves. We have not messed up their so-called "state". They did - since many many centuries, time and again, never any different.

The hostility againstn mGermany also is becasue Germkans are not entusiastic to repeat the american Fed's mistake to just print money and print and porint and more and more and more. The bill gets delayed at the price of multiplying the final costs. Also, Germany not only guaranbtees for the bailout fonds, but also for several times as much money - via the german share in the ECB which has started to bail out greek bonds as well, nothign else it is.

It's all madness, but the German are held repsonsibole if they do not endlessly pay for it. It is so hilarious an attempt to blackmail us that I couold only laugh aboiut it any more - and heplessly crmajng my fist when seeing that our wonderful parliament once again has waved through another tranche of several dozen of billions of german tax money that we will never see again and will need to compnesate for the loss by raising our own debts limitsd and needing to pay additional interest and devaluing our oensions and future finacial securitiy of our emplyoees and workers.

But we are Nazis if we do not do that. That is so cheap, c'mon, even if you are germanophobe you cannot believe that so easily?

I can give you a nice outlook, you very probably will see the financial full collapse of Germany sooner or later. In some years, maybe 10 to 20 at max, but probably earlier, europpe paymaster No. 1 will have run out of heartblood, and collapse. And then the EU is done any many European states as well. Honstely said, I am looking forward. The EU and the euro are the biggest catastrophes for europe since WWII. And where the Nazis failed to destroy all valuable culture they came in contact with, the EU increasingly succeeds. what both have in common, the Third Reich and the EU, is a strong dislike for rich diversity in regional culture and differences between the many many different peoples and tribes living in europe.

Because there is no Europe in singular - the word always must imply the plural. The idea of a singular One-Europe - is a self-destructive fallacy. Cooperation and coordination of economies in trading with non-european regions - yes, hell, that was what the initial idea of the ECC was about. Everything else - death to the EU, I say. It sticks its nose into things now that must not be its business at all. Language. Education. Local food habits. Public opinion forming.

It rmeinds me very very strongly of the sysytem they have had in the GDR and in the USSR. Merkel was chief-secretary for propaganda in the GDR's state youth organisation. Adn she really makes her origin recongisable in germany now. The official polkit slang has striking paralleols to the temrinology they used in the GDR media reproting about the heroic ruling of the party in the worker's paradise of real existing socialism.

the bailout for greece now that Greece wanted - does not help the Greek people, btw. It helps European banks, foreign investment fonds, and foreign hedgefonds. Like the money flood by the ECB does not liquidise the market to easy credits, but gets stockpiled by these same players. Paying for the ECB frenzy must the tax payer, one quarter of it by the Germans alone. And in the bundestag it was openly amditted today in the general debate that the money for Greece will not make a difference, and that more bailouts will most likely follow - also to no effect. the inteiror minister has rejected support for Merkel, btw, and the chancellor got no own coalition majority in parliament and was helped out by Socialists and Green. Interestingly, the communists also voted against the bailout.

If somebody plans to burn down that damn treacherous Reichstag, please accept me handing you the matches.

Then why do the Germans try so hard to hold onto this?

It is because they have alot of money invested in this, and being the dominant player, they can dictate economic policy to other weaker countries.

Not excusing the PIIGS, but you guys let them cook the books to get in, in the first place. The euro experiment is an exercise in greed.

Yes America and it's fed sucks the life out the country, but has little to do with the Euro sucking the life out of Europe.

I do not recant my previous point. It was not intended to call Germans Nazis. It was intended to show how Merkel feels it is her duty to muscle other soveriegn nations, because she holds all the money.

It's Germany's eternally bad consicnce due to WWII. Calling Germany a strong power, or demanding it to lead and give orientation in Europe, makes germans feel guilty. Our foreign jester Westerwelle just said it tweo weeks ago or so: "Us Germans do not wish to ever lead europe." Old chncellor Schmidt has warned the Germans to be seen as leading in the crisis and that Germany shall not attempt to lead europe. Germany marks plenty of tough iron-ladied words at home - but on the european parkett she gives in to foreign demand again and again and again, or sooner or later allows to get "pressed" for acceptance over something. Its just that she excels in hiding it at home. that way, what immediately appears t be a german success in european diplomacy, in the following days and weeks got water4ed down, hollowed out, played down, with merkel accepting the final outcome that had nothing to do with what was agreed on. She does so by refering endlessly to "lack of alternatives" and calling it "consensus" and european unity - as if there would something exist as euro0pean unity! :haha: Germans are obsessed by r5eaching always a consensus and never appearing to be as somebody accepting conflict. Necessarily this means that German politics also give the idea that if pressed hard enough Germany will not stand by anything others do not like.

If there is one absolutely dominant characteristic in German politics since merkel came to power, than this: "total arbitrariness" (völlige Beliebigkeit). The conservative party is not standing for anything anymore, especially not for conservatism. It just exists from one day to the next, has no orientation, only lives for the purpose of opportunistically securing merkel's power.

I indeed think that you can talk of a new political school here, Merkelianism. I mean that serious. Total, opportunistic arbitrariness while lacking any content that could not be called by its precise opposite right the next day.

She's a disaster. Problem is with the socialists Germany would become even more enthusiastic to sink tax money in foreign bottomless holes. Scoialist international solidarity and denying of individual responsibility, and all that, you know.

Kinda off topic, but Germany should hold no regrets for WW2. At least us in America feel so. The past is the past, but that is easy for those untouched by some of the things a certain failed Austrian painter did.

German self guilt for WW2 is legislated. heck they got mad at Tom Cruise wearing a Nazi uniform when taping Operation Valkyrie in Berlin. (a classy movie to honor German heroes)

It is self imposed, most the world outside of Israel forgave and forgot.

German psyche is crushed and forever in ruins, believe me. Denazification and a general education of German minds to never ever like the idea of a German strong nation again, does the rest. Even the constitutional structure of the modern German state is designed to weaken a strong central government - thats why the federal states are so very powerful in german and the chabncellor's formal power is so small compared to presidents and premiers in England, France or the US. Never no Prussian state again.

It is indeed somewhat obscene that a high representative of Scientology plays a resistence fighter against hitler. That is as if Gaddhafi would have played the main role in Attenborough's "Ghandi". the movie indeed was not too bad, but also nothing special, and quite Hollywoodish, but the choice of main actor for that role simply is a complete fail over here.

You do not have Poland as a neighbour. ::DL and we learn it in the euro crisis currently, the Nazi past is anything but forgotten in europe. We get called on that currently from several countries again - usually those countries wanting more money from us while weakneing german influence in the distribution process at the same time. But in Poland, you can score high with Antigermanism, it seems. But not all of their people, I assume. Usually I estimate that one third of them is falling for Kaczynski's hostility against Germany.

I've never understood the crippling self-guilt of Germany, and I don't think I ever will. It is a shame, even in the dark era of Nazi Germany there were still some great people, and yet to section off an entire part of history as 'verboten'...well, I think it's a shot in the foot because it's just encouraging people to dabble in that which is forbidden. :damn:

Skybird, Poland does have some gripes, but do they gripe to the Russians too. They kinda agreed to split them up like a birthday cake along with the Nazis.

I know what the Austrian painter did, but what was the rest of Europes excuse. Yeah Russia, you...No one talks how the Ribbentropp/Molotov agreement split up Poland...

I forgot, the victors write history. Which means anyone who claimed allied side is just, and Axis is simply a dungheap for our forces to practice on, and subjugate for fun.

Screw you Italians, Nips, and Germs.

(not really)

late edit: I hate Cruise as a man, but appreciate Operation Valkyrie as a movie, I thought it held tribute to the heroes of Germany well. Regardless of the main actor.:salute:

To each our own, most of America is past Toms nuttyness. He is still is great actor IMHO. Though still a half a lunatic.

Evryone here keeps a German in cage and sticks needles into him from time to time...Nazi flying sources are not much of an issue though.

When talking about holocaust Germany always comes up and not aliens ...go figure.

To a large extent, we are all in danger of becoming like Greece as we have all been spending beyond our means, maybe not quite as badly or as irresponsibly as the Greek goverment - but find me one country in Europe with a balanced budget over the last decade.
Its easy to bash the Greeks now, but lets see how we behave if and when we end up in a similar situation as them.

In 955, Otto I. defeated a Hungarian army at the city of Augsburg, on the so-called Lechfeld. The point here is that at that time there was no singular national entity in form of a united kingdom, empire, or feeling of a shared identity. But in this battle, a very diverse alliance of armies from many different spots of what was to become later Germany, defeated an enemy who was hostile to them all. Historians usually give this battle as the birthday of a German national identity.

that was over a thousand years ago. In later centuries, German artists, philosphers, thinkers, scientists, painters, composers, technicians infleunced the unfolding of world's cultural fate and its movement towards modern progress to a very fundamental, vital degree. Technology, science, engineering, medicine, classical music - fields that are unimaginable in their present welath woithout the old Germans of the past.

But in many Germans' heads, especially the heads of the left and the protestant church, this plays no role, they reduce these 1000 years to just those 12 years of Nazi tyranny. Those 12 dark years are the history of Germany now. The only history.

:damn:

After two world wars caused and lost, Germans canot argue from a position of strength anymore, for us, "strength" translates into "immoral". The virtue that is embraced in germany more than anywhere else in the EU, is weakness and well-meaning. Its a people of socially over-nannied, unrealistic softies. We mean it well - and to us that is enough to qualify us as the finest of the finest. even more we think we must save the rest of the world by meaning it well and setting examples on the basis of meaning it well, examples that we seriously expect allm others to follow in all their foolishness and self-damaging. Climate politics is such an example, but the Euro also is, and germany's EU-policy. Needless to say that this weakness and self-limitation almost invites parasites to suck our blood. That we let them we consider to be our "tolerance", and saying "No" would be too harsh and too unfriendly, wouldn'T it.

Dichter und Denker? No more. Can'T say I am happy anymore to live over here. We have peace, and it is plenty of small but nice landscapes, a very diverse palette of different landscapes. But the people is one I cannot get along with anymore. By emotion and sympathy for the idealistic fundament laid in the past, I feel more American than many here with whom I collided over the past years would imagine possible. ;) I never attacked the Us over the way they were meant, but over the way they have turned out to be, and the widening gap between how it was meant idealistically, and what it is now in reality.

Just watch at the ECB and then tell me we will not end up as badly as the Greek. Just give it enough time, and it will turn out like that for everybody else. Including Germany. The ECB has a multi-megaton bomb hidden in it'S safe, and the thing is ticking.

Physicists know there is no perpetuum mobile in this world. But bankers and economists claim to know it better.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...817887,00.html

HMCR, I had to look that up. Her Majesty’s tax collectors, the UK’s equivalent to the German tax administration.

Of course, if Greece should ask for assistance to reform its tax administration, this would be a joint EU effort.

Germany is not the only contributor to the Eurozone bailout found, though probably the largest contributor because it has the largest economy in Europe. That contribution it is not an altruistic act of charity, as Greece owes a lot of money to German banks.

German glumness, eh?