Quote:
Originally Posted by Skybird
(Post 1807591)
Culturally grown/educated own understanding of "identity" plays a role here. And if that "identity" of the foreigner collides with the "identity" of the native, both identities being expressed both in sentiments and thought-about views, then you have a problem: a conflict that cannot be solved without the one being dominated and overturned by the other, most likely by fighting of any kind, which can be physically, but must not be restricted to that, but can take on other forms of conflict as well. Even greater problems you have if the foreigner'S background prohibits him by dogmatic order, or by education/brainwashing prevents him to adopt to the native culture, which is true in case of religious such dogmas.
Some French thinker said patriotism is kind of love to thy people and their culture and its heritage, rules and achievements. Nationalism tends to be more about hate against other nations, fighting them or minimising them. You cannot claim to be patriotic for another nation that you move into as a migrant when you still put our original cultural origin over that of your new home, or even just equal to it. there is a difference between immigration, and colonisation. The first means the newcomer adapts to the rules and dsettings of the new environment he has moved to. The latter means the newcomer tries to make the new environment like the one he has left at home, and/or doing so at the cost of the native population in the new environment.
For these reasons I for example strictly oppose German - typically leftist - ideas about dual citizenship. I also say it is not enough that a foreigner just obeys the law and pays taxes, that makes him a citizen of the new cou7ntry he lives in. There is more to the issue,. much more. Feeling of identity. Cultural shaping of mind, habits, emotions. Readiness to give up one's own past cultural identity in favour of adapting - ohne Wenn und Aber - to that of the new world one lives in. Like I was already no Christian anymore 25 ago when I still formally was in the church and had to pay church taxes, you do not become a German citizen al of a sudden just by paying taxes and not violating criminal laws. Certain pltila cirtcles inEurope thoiugh wants to minimise the issue to this, though, in ortder to continue with their social engineering experiment - unopposed and beyond reach of ciritical reflection and critcism, is possible.
But as a matter of fact Multi-Kulti worked with only some cultures and countries migrants came from. Wiuth the migration especially from Muslim countries, multi-culti not only has failed, but proves to be disastrous social consequences for the hosting European societies. So, here again one sees that migratiuon is not just migration. One needs to look at what places migration comes from. Some cause problems. Some do not.
And this is where we need to be choosy, welcoming the unproblematic ones if they are qualified and can contribute to our countries, but recting those that deamnd more than threy could give back, or cause problems in integration.
Just throwing people without discriminating them into one pot and stirr and expect that to go well - that is an illusion.
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Yeah, we had this discussion already this year, in the thread about Germany and multicultural identity
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=178538 - so much I'd say to this would be repetition.
We still see the much of the cultural/national heritage of immigrants, dominantly in th efirst generation. In most cases it disappeared later, when 2nd gen immigrants just called themselves Germans - with ....background.
I still fail to see how you can't be a German with a turban on the head - if you accept the values which our constitution is built upon, the values of the Age of Enlightment if you want to call it this way.
Identitiy is what you give to yourself, a voluntary choice, you can have a victim identity/mentality "ohh, nobody accepts me" or go into the offensive. Same with cultural or regional feelings, I feel much more attached to my region here than to the whole entity of Germany - what do I have with them in common? Also regarding heritage: you won't find two persons (except siblings) who share the same heritage.
Of course it'es easier said than done. And we don't have to be blind: most immigrants of today are here for economic reasons, not for freedom, democracy or Merkel's good looks. However like you stated in your example with paying church taxes without belief in its values anymore. You can't look into the head of the people.
Germany nowadays does at least require a commitment to our basic laws and values, an example: "
Für Ihre Einbürgerung ist es wichtig, dass Sie die nachfolgend beschriebenen Elemente der freiheitlichen demokratischen Grundordnung verstanden und akzeptiert haben" (http://www.info4alien.de/einbuergeru...erial/FDGO.htm)
Anything else would be not feasible and going against the freedom of opinion. Personally, I'd like to see people kicked out who don't accept or break those very basic laws - the first ones of our constitution (I hate to call them Western as they are universal imo)
And this is where patriotism coms to play: the study showed that it can make people feel happier through it - or maybe vice versa. This is where Germany or Europe has failed: to give a cover for common values.
We often smile above the American patriotism here, which often looks so naive to us Europeans, but say what you want: it works for them, as a sauce or cover to bind "newcomers" into their society. Still, many have their heritage but cover up the salad bowl (not melting pot) with an American topping.
But this all, has nothing to with the fact that immigrants can't be patriots to their new country. Hell, I am none, so I have migrant friends who are one :DL
(tbc, gotta go now)
