Very well, alone.

Well done Dave!

About time too.

The Game is Up, The EURO is Finished! Nigel Farage Speaks Out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pypd5...eature=related

Yeah take them both down. But as much as I hate Cameron and his Tory party, I have got say "well done" to him.

Good job Britain, European union was a disaster for the common people.

If you don't think someone(s) got rich from this worldwide finanacial crisis then you are daft, ignorant, or living under a rock.

Let the whole thing fall, the whole house of cards.

Then we can start over, with proper laws in place to protect people from financial wizards (predators).
Sure it will hurt, but alot of folks are already hurt by this, time for everyone to share in the burden, not just the super poor, and the lower middle class. Who has bore the brunt of this for the last 5 years.

Capitalism is broken, not the system, but the people who are meant to protect us from the extremes of it.

what you just said regardless of the system is the problem.

:up::yep:

Well , the outcome has done nothing for Italy and Spain because their loan interest rates went up again today :DL

One needs to see one thing also. Cameron was not exclusively about the new treaties. He wanted special rights and exceptions for the British stockmarket. He wanted not only to prevent future regulations for the London, and wanted not only to prevent future financial transaction taxes for London - but as being reported in German media, he also demanded that existing rules should be reversed and that London should be given special veto powers and exceptions from rules Britain already had agreed to, regarding the set called Basel-III, and slightly tighter regulation of financial transaction.

German paper Die Welt also said that he made a very arrogant and snippy appearance, pissing all the 26 others also on a personal level, due to the way in which he met the others.

British exports go to close to 50% into the EU. It has now nothing to say and decide anymore in economical issues that are of vital interest for it. And like it or not, any worsening of the Euro crisis will backfire on London as well - the pound is no autark currency, and the British economy is far from being in a shape to be supportive of any isolationistic policy.

Take from this what you want, like the outcome of the summit or not - it are simply facts that also will make their weight felt. Even more so if - what so far I do not expect - the German indeed will prevent forever anything that wpould equal the function of Eurobonds, and will indeed successfully prevent the ECB or the ESM from gaining the legal status of a bank's licence to form fictional virtual value by measures of its own. If so and the stability policy indeed would become dominant, London as a financial hotspot would be suffering in the long run, loosing in importance. Loosing deals. Loosing taxes adding to the British national GDP.

I honestly do not know wether to applaud Britain, or to cry for it.

Certain is this: they talk of a new treaty and new rules that should secure a culture of financial stability and debt discipline in the future. For some strange reason, nobody talks anymore about that we already have such a treaty and such deficit rules in place, and that just almost everybody is violating it, including Germany and France. It is the treaty of Maastricht and the socalled stability pact. When that treaty has been violated so massively until now, and so many other EU rules been violated or ignored as well - why does anybody seriously believe that just another treaty will not be violated, bypassed, ignored as well when it is seen as opportunistic - even more when Germany to a greater degree then already now will guarantee and stand up for thge losses created by doing so, and an anchoring in the de-factor EU-constitution of Lisbon has been prevented by a EU president and EU commission fearing it's status getting reduced?

For the British, I may not know what to think of the summit. But for Germany, I already know. It is pretty much the mess I feared, hidden under a thick coat of sugary words and shining glitter. The "markets", they of course have hoped to make more short-term profit by installking the socalled "bazooka": payed by the taxpapyer, installed at the price of even more debts, and benefitting some profiteers at the top who already are fat and want to become fatter at the cost of the communal interest. Their heistent, or negazive reaction today can be taken as a logical coinseqeunce for the dissappointed greed. But maybe one could also take it as a sign that they tend to agree with my assessement, though. Dissapointed greed, and sense of realism - must not always be mutually exclusive.

The operetta goes on. The orchestra doesn't find the right tones, the singers yell out of tune, and the choir knows no choreography but smiles as wide like Sun Shine herself.

But the room nevertheless applauds.

Skybird.

It is simply proof that the EU is doomed to fail.

It was as noble an idea as Communism. Until mortal men realized how wealthy they can get.

As with all things, with winners there has to be losers.

Money is fake. It is.
Think about it, what is it? It is not real.
The values are made up by men we do not know, and manipulated by people with alot of it.
Yet it governs our life. Kinda like "god". Jesus said I have to spend a knot of money on you on December 25th (don't tell them Christmas is a pagan holiday of Sol Invictus. Tree and everything, thank Rome for that)

Reality is simple, solutions are not.

Germany exports a lot more than it imports for Europe and iirc that amounts to approximately 40% so there is a surplus of money she can afford to reinvest to the less well of european countries.

What we are seeing now is Sarkozy turning as arrogant as Merkel has been acting lately.

If and when the EU goes belly up history may well find it repeating itself....a Germany wanting to remain dominant in the area even though it was the main architect in flogging a dead horse.

The future does not bode well for any of the 27 member states I fear.

What we have witnessed since yesterday was not a 'fix' but simply a 'glossing over' of the issue with no tangible measures having been taken or agreed even to put matters right.

I truly believe it is already too late for that.

It was interesting to learn on Sky News this evening that the Germans have just started printing new currency......Deutschmarks

looks to me he is thinking about whether those two are doin it..... and laughing at the idea

It is always, with the greatest naturalness, claimed that other countries have, for oh so many many reasons any claim to make for German tax money. Triuthg is that we have risen our actual debts from fromerly 1.4 or 1.5 trillion before the crisis to now 2.2 trillion. Truth is that in 2008, before the crisis broke out the first time, we almost had a balance dbudget, and since then it turned highly deficitary. Truth is that our implicit debt burden, calculating all future costs due to risen interests, guarantees for bailit funds for others and such, are 5-6 trillion - possibly more.

It is an illusion on German power that we have money to give away. We have not. We make debts - very very huge debts - just to bail out others, and increase our own interests we need to service. But who bails out Germany, if need arises? Who could rescue the savior?

In the end, this idiotic "The Huns are coming once again" rethoric is just about this: greed and envy for Germany currently being slightly better positioned than other national finance systems - but this could change within one bad week, so very easily. That we also bear more responsibilities, pay more, and run greater risks than any other of the netto-paying countries - this gets comfortably ignored. After all, we are still just the Huns in everybody's thinking, so... By the end of the day, the others, and England, just do not want to change, but want to get payed by Germany, and getting payed, and payed, and then payed more.

Without the German money machine, the EU today probably would already not exist anymore. And that holds a warning for the future as well: if German finances collapses, it brings down all of Europe as well. It is in everybody's interest therefore to help that Germany does not get brought down by excessive spending into bailing out others.

IKt is not arrogance that Londown is denied a special status and special vetoes and a right to decide on financial issues when at the same time Lonmdon ´refuses to accept the responsibility and commitment as well. I undersatand that the fincialo industry is for Englöand what cars are for Germany, but still - the way Engöland has structured its national income, is England'S problem. And since the crisis has become life-threatening, the old rules of "always polite, always foul comporise, always a Brit rabate" have changed. That is no arrogance on behalf of Merkel or Sarkozy. It is England needing to realise that Europe not necessarily depends on British extravaganza a la Thatcher. I am not sure to what degree England needs Europe - but I am sure that Europpe needs England even less. In the end you Brits act since decades as if the Atlantic is more narrow than the channel. ;)

Thbat is the typical and very absurd chliche. Germany and France now have grabbed the lead - because somebody had to. Frnech alwayxs wanted that, but if you look at the history of the EU and the personell and decision policy of Germany, you see a huge diffrence. Germany was extremely shy and afraid of beign seen as a nation wan ting to lead again, since decades. KIt has never sent many strong staff to Brussel, but most of the time second rank diplomats only. It sometzimes postured,l but bend over again if the others pressed hard enough. Nothing scares German politicvians more than to be isolated in Europoe over claims of wanting to dominate again - it is pathologically encrypted in german genes since WWII. - But now, while Germany after halöf a century no loner wills to just be the stupid gold-coin-donkey of the EU and beyond that just shutting up, all that enraged talkign about the Fourth Reich and Germany dominating and so on is back en mode.

That I agree to, although probably for other reasons than you do.

[quotes]
I truly believe it is already too late for that.

It was interesting to learn on Sky News this evening that the Germans have just started printing new currency......Deutschmarks[/QUOTE]
That is new to me. While I yesterday posted that several central banks do studies and preparation for a - so Morgan Stanley - "20% chance of the Euro collapsing, there was no word on the Germans doing anything like that - espeically not printing new notes. But I know for sure that since the Euro came, German lacks the printing capacity to adress its need for print money soley by its own porinting companies - capacitiers were shut down when the D-Mark was abandoned. We now get a very good ammount of our Euro-notes printed in other nations.

German debts are over 80% of the German economy's yearly GDP. Germany's guarantees for European bailout funds, are exceeding the national state budget for one year. The budget for next year will raise new debts added to the existing ones, equalling over two dozen billion right now, plus 25 billion due to the ICF involvement called for yesterday, plus 30-40 billion so far due to the mechanism they debated about yesterday for the first 4 months of 2012 - all this money Germany ADDITIONALLY pumping into the black hoole European debts are. And Cameron wanted it to stay that way, wanted even more German investement, and an even greater bite from German cake for England - so tell me, Jim - who is the one arrogant here? Cameron, or Merkozy? It'S not as if we take this money, these stellar sums, from existring welath. We finance it all by increaisng our own debts, risking our own rating, and raising our own interest rates - with all the additonal costs this causes for us in the future.

I googled for the story of D-Mark notes being printed, and found many entries indeed: dating back to as early as 2009, saying that the German will reintroduce the new old currency and leave the Euro by surprise on 1st January 2011. :) No serious source, though. No mjapor nerws portal. No newspaper. Just some "insider blogs", conspiratory websites, lobbying finance agncies presernting their desires as actual facts. There is even an apparently faked TV news message that by the looks copies the looks of the popular "Tagesschau", but is not, indeed I never have heared of a broadcaster called "KOPP news".

You have fallen for a fake news there, Jim. British media traditionally are hot in sentiment when it comes to Germany. Do not believe every nonsense they print. If the German giovenrment indeed would dare such a coup, they would start shooting at each other in parliament. Especially "Die Linke", the Greens, and parts of the SPD indeed hate Germany existing as a nation - and that is no exaggreation.

But I admit I would welcome such a move of Germany leaving the Euro. It just will not happen. Not Germany. Others, yes. But not Germany. We have far to much a bad conscience for that.

They even want to change the constitution to make it a German self-obligation that it should push for European integration at all cost, no matter what, and the opposition wants to go even further and have the constitution ruling that Germany must pay for once and forever in money whatever Europe would cost - unlimited guarantees for the debts of all others, that is! The government meanwhile wants to disarm the Constitutional HJiogh Court, so that it can no longer decide on any issues regarding the giovernment'S decisions regarding Europe. The govenrment wants to exlcude both the parliament, and the Constitutional High Court. The court some time ago has ruled that on any further bail outs for others, the whole parliamant needs to be consulted first. This is what brought Merkel up into arms.

England should put this Euro quagmire of political retoric behind it and look to the high seas again. We should not focus on the impending storm, but welcome it and put all hands to the topsails again.

We joined a common market, not give up our right as being the most stable political Nation in Europe, but to trade, this has not happened, we have been decieved by the middle class obsession with political reason.

Reason is little more than excuse, faith and belief are the builders of Nations. :up: