I find that there are few things less civil than civilization. Regardless of how we dress it up, we're still a morass of individuals who will gouge each other's eyes out in the effort to obtain or retain power. We only need look at our continued history to see that.

Yes but what we say and what we do are two different things!:yep:

Like i said, the depths of human depravity is a bottomless pit. Personally, i think the fear of going to hell, eternal damnation, whatever you want to call it, is the only thing that keeps a good number of people in our society from acting like complete animals.

Would that possibly be a christian ideal?

Duc, some of the crap I have seen in 19 years has left me hoping that hell is actually on this earth and we do go to a better place.

I agree with you to a point. Civilization could be said to be natural conclusion of mankind. Is it the only end, haven't seen an argument for an alternative.

As Aristotle argues in Ethics, laws and education exist to raise the child into reason and that helps form a virtuous person The virtuous person uses reason to know right from wrong. They are not the problem. Laws exist beyond that capacity for the great many who fall by the way side, who cannot use reason to find a conclusion that their actions are wrong.

I was trying to tapdance around the subject of religion, as its a hot topic within itself. I'd rather not get into it except to say, I'm more of the agnostic type. Still I would never want it proven (if it was even possible), that there is no such thing as a God (plural), or God (singular), assuming there wasn't. Because If that were ever proven somehow, I think the very fabric of our society would start to unravel. Religion has its place in society, as it keeps some of the animals in check. (EDIT: Not a good arguing point for Islam though. :haha: )