I sorta like this line, you need to figure out whether, you are the one up on the cross, or the one pounding in the nails.

How about neither?

I think you really can't be sitting on the fence with this one, me I think I'd take the cross, not a preferable way to go, I was hope-in for a firey motorcycle crash into the Grand Canyon.

And here we have an excellent example of what the implications of that article are concerned with.

How about the guy who at least tries to take the hammer away from the dude pounding in the nails?

In other words, when given the choice between sheep or wolf, you can always opt for shepherd. :yep:

More than a few tried I believe. One group ended up committing mass suicide on some mountaintop to keep the nail pounders from getting to them.

I'm talking figuratively, not about actual historical events or about Jesus being crucified as a specific example.

In fact that's actually a really bad example, because the whole point of that story is the absolute necessity of him being nailed to the cross in order to play the role of shepherd by sacrificing himself for good of the flock. So from the standpoint of standard Christian theology, taking the hammer away from the guy pounding in the nails would actually be a bad thing as it would get in the way of God's ultimate plan.

My only point was that in the world of everyday human relations, we are not limited to the choice between naive, oblivious prey and cunning, deliberate predator.

And a good point it is Frau, One that I agree with.

But seriously I understood that you were talking figuratively. I just used the Masada example to illustrate my point that such resistance (while certainly preferable to being prey) often has pretty serious consequences.

Well maybe not. If the event was preordained then any such effort is doomed to failure. But it could be that humans sacrificing themselves to save the life of the son of God might be viewed by that deity as a sign that at least some of us have passed his test.

"Killed trying to save Jesus" sounds to me like a pretty sure ticket for sainthood.

Not so sure about that, given the canonical narrative of Jesus' arrest.

One of his disciples attacked a Roman soldier and managed to cut off his ear. IIRC Jesus was not pleased by the violence done in his defense.