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-   -   battery recharge question:historic (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=161496)

ryanglavin 02-10-10 09:47 AM

Hey jim, where'd you get the hands?

Leandros 02-10-10 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbuna (Post 1263426)
Which takes me back to my post @#5....the propellor would be moving which would mean the U-boat should not be stationary........but the game allows for recharging of the batteries to take place whilst the boat is at a standstill.

I think....not really sure anymore.....what was the original point again? http://www.psionguild.org/forums/ima...lies/wacko.gif

I've read the articles of the links above and one thing I wasn't aware of became clear to me. The diesels are not connected to the propeller shafts, but driving them through the electric engines. That's fine. I was a little surprised, though, as this means that there would be no propulsion, not even on the surface, if the e-engines were damaged. I suppose this was done to save space and weight.

OTH, it doesn't seem clear to me whether the propeller shaft/propellers could be disconnected from the engines or not. A gearbox. Or maybe adjustable propeller pitch. To me it sounds unlikely that batteries couldn't be charged while lying still. Since the e-engines themselves were the battery charging generators, driven by the diesels, the axles would then swirl while charging. This would also take up/diminish energy for the actual charging. And the boat would move.

Can anyone point specifically to a source which says this.

ryanglavin 02-10-10 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leandros (Post 1263520)
I've read the articles of the links above and one thing I wasn't aware of became clear to me. The diesels are not connected to the propeller shafts, but driving them through the electric engines. That's fine. I was a little surprised, though, as this means that there would be no propulsion, not even on the surface, if the e-engines were damaged. I suppose this was done to save space and weight.

OTH, it doesn't seem clear to me whether the propeller shaft/propellers could be disconnected from the engines or not. A gearbox. Or maybe adjustable propeller pitch. To me it sounds unlikely that batteries couldn't be charged while lying still. Since the e-engines themselves were the battery charging generators, driven by the diesels, the axles would then swirl while charging. This would also take up/diminish energy for the actual charging. And the boat would move.

Can anyone piont specifically to a source which says this.

I usually get all my information from Clay Blair's books.
He usually has facts about how the boats worked.
I was also reading in a book that U.s. Submarines had a giant cable leading out of the batteries, and If you touched it, you would literally be incinerated in under 0.1 seconds because of voltage. If that got messed up, you probably couldn't even move the boat. If a loose screw got into the cage that the cable was housed, you would probably not be able to move the boat either.

Sailor Steve 02-10-10 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbuna (Post 1263426)
Which takes me back to my post @#5....the propellor would be moving which would mean the U-boat should not be stationary........but the game allows for recharging of the batteries to take place whilst the boat is at a standstill.

I think....not really sure anymore.....what was the original point again? http://www.psionguild.org/forums/ima...lies/wacko.gif

Why would the propellor be moving? In the u-boats the diesel is clutched either to the generator or to the propellor shaft, not to both. The engine that is doing the charging is not driving the boat, so if they are both charging or if the non-charging one is shut down, the boat won't move.

Jimbuna 02-10-10 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve (Post 1263610)
Why would the propellor be moving? In the u-boats the diesel is clutched either to the generator or to the propellor shaft, not to both. The engine that is doing the charging is not driving the boat, so if they are both charging or if the non-charging one is shut down, the boat won't move.

I simply cannot imagine the momentum of travel being sacrificed....why not utilise the momentum to travel toward some intended destination.

The only scenario I can imagine would be if you were lying in wait along an expected convoy route, but even then wouldn't you be submerged to maximise your 'listening' means via the hydrophones.

I'd be interested in learning of an account where a boat simply 'hovered' on the surface whilst charging the batteries.

I just can't imagine this happening in RL.

Not saying it never happened, but would like to know of it :hmmm:

Sailor Steve 02-10-10 01:39 PM

I can't imagine doing it either. I was just addressing the question of whether it could be done.

brett25 02-10-10 02:18 PM

Quote:

I simply cannot imagine the momentum of travel being sacrificed....why not utilise the momentum to travel toward some intended destination.
One scenario could be a case where the u boat was in dangerous waters, needing to travel submerged most of the time but needing eventually to discretely surface, recharge in place and submerge (where a trip on the surface could attract unwanted attention). They could have done this decks awash for more stealth. Also it could be a fuel efficient way to recharge where fuel levels were critically low, or to extend the range of the patrol

also this article points to an interesting fact that charging time and propeller speeds were inverse http://www.uboat.net/articles/id/54

Quote:

When the submarine's speed is faster the time of the battery charging is longer, because fast speed needs more electric power. Opposite, when the submarine's speed is slower the time for the battery charging is shorter. In that case, slower speed needs a smaller part of the electric power and the bigger part of the electric power remains for the battery charging.
so why not no rotation at all for fastest recharge. I guess the main question at this point is whether there is an example of this ever occuring during the war?

Leandros 02-10-10 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve (Post 1263610)
Why would the propellor be moving? In the u-boats the diesel is clutched either to the generator or to the propellor shaft, not to both. The engine that is doing the charging is not driving the boat, so if they are both charging or if the non-charging one is shut down, the boat won't move.

That, I believe, is not the essence of the links above. They say that all propulsion goes through the e-engines. That is, the diesels are not coupled to the axles. Whether that is correct or not I do not know. But that is how I understand the information in the links. That said, and if it is correct, I find it strange if there is not a sort of (de)coupling between the e-engines and the axles/propellers as the e-engine as a generator for charging needs to revolve. Modern u-boats might have a different system.

If you think about it from the diesels' point of view such a propulsion system is advantageous in that these can be run on near constant speeds instead of suffering from the various stress loadings caused by the variation of stress on the propeller and axles which supplants to the diesels.

So, when under speed, and charging, one diesel would drive the e-engine driving one axle/propeller while the other diesel drives the e-engine as a battery generator (which, on low speed, also can give propulsion power to the other axle/propeller while charging) - or - one diesel drives both the propulsion e-engine and the one charging.

Leandros 02-10-10 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brett25 (Post 1263851)
I guess the main question at this point is whether there is an example of this ever occuring during the war?

As a commander I would certainly have liked to have the possibility to lie still on station while charging. After all, keeping station was a major part of the game - when you first got there. Any other solution i'd say would be very inflexible. Not to say that it wasn't like that. I do no not know but I would like to find out about this.

ryanglavin 02-10-10 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brett25 (Post 1263851)
. Also it could be a fuel efficient way to recharge where fuel levels were critically low, or to extend the range of the patrol

But wouldn't you use fuel to recharge the batteries?

brett25 02-10-10 10:13 PM

Quote:

But wouldn't you use fuel to recharge the batteries?
according to the above info, you would use less fuel with less prop rotation, perhaps considerable less fuel if zero energy is going to prop rotation, not to mention the resistance of moving the sub through heavy seas

Sailor Steve 02-10-10 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryanglavin (Post 1264332)
But wouldn't you use fuel to recharge the batteries?

Yep, and you'd use more fuel since the engines are running at low speeds while patrolling (unless of course you're chasing something) and they are run at full speed for fastest possible charging.

I don't find the inverse propellor speed 'interesting' i.e. unusual. The engines can drive the boat or charge the batteries. The more power applied to one, the less available for the other.

Leandros 02-11-10 03:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbuna (Post 1263651)
The only scenario I can imagine would be if you were lying in wait along an expected convoy route, but even then wouldn't you be submerged to maximise your 'listening' means via the hydrophones.

I should think so, but you got to go up and charge eventually. So, should you stay in the same location or let yourself be "driven" while doing so. Another thing, while we're on recharging. Wouldn't the recharging give off more sounds if the propellers were rotating. What is easier to detect - the vibrations from the diesels or the propellers moving....I don't know....

Jimbuna 02-11-10 04:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve (Post 1263801)
I can't imagine doing it either. I was just addressing the question of whether it could be done.

What if they rigged a sail to the conning tower and put a few oars over the side....."Faster faster, Caesar wants to go water skiing" :DL:03:

Leandros 02-11-10 05:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbuna (Post 1264467)
What if they rigged a sail to the conning tower and put a few oars over the side....."Faster faster, Caesar wants to go water skiing" :DL:03:

Hmmm, would that charge the batteries....?....I suppose it would if the axles/propellers weren't disconnected.....if they could be disconnected....if they couldn't it would be heavier to row....boy, that's a serious drawback....better than rigging a sail - a windmill. That could charge the batteries....:hmmm:....hmm...we are getting somewhere now...


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