You are correct, there is a book about this (I have it at home) that talks about LGB relationships with some of the u-boats captians. (he's not a popular guy) I'll look it up when i get off work.:salute:

I couldn't find a photo of the panel, but I can pretty much guarantee that the torpedo firing controls are very near the TDC, in the Control Room. By the time an order was passed to the torpedo room the solution would be lost and it would miss every time. For night attacks from the Bridge the order is shouted into the speaking tube which leads directly to the Control Room.

The way it has always been done in these games is the most realistic you can get without using voice control.

The SH series are games, nothing more.

They will never replace the realism of actually being in a given situation in RL terms.

What the simulation gives you is a sense of immersion and (hopefully) a plausable sense of realism.

Personally, I wouldn't like to have to rely on voice commands.

I consider these games a tool to give us a very rough idea of the decision process a U-boat captain would go through during WWII. Like when to crash dive, how to attack, silent running or not etc.. etc..
We don't get the feel, the smells, the fear of knowing we might die at any moment, and all those other things the real guys went through.
So, like most wargames, not very realistic, but a good educational/learning tool.

The game has to be fun to play as well . The balance sh4 had regarding playability and realism was pretty good but could have been a bit more polished regarding the realism aspect .

i highly agree no voice command

Tilting at the realism windmills...

It never seems to occur that realistic game is more oxymoronic than either jumbo shrimp or military intelligence. Likewise tying Das Boot, a movie based on a novel written by an artist whom was not even a qualified submarine officer as the standard for SH realism seems somewhat out of place as well.

I would submit that in most issues you bring your realism with you rather than expecting the developers to hand it to you on a silver platter. Realism, that is to say simulation as opposed to entertainment is about what you do and not what you see. The SH franchise is capable of realistically simulating certain aspects of WW2 submarine combat but only if the player wishes to impose historicallly realistic restrictions on himself.

Many mods make simulation easier than stock and a number of well written tutorials feature techniques and doctrines that were used in reality and that also work in SH. Some do not and never will. Kudos to the authors and modders for sharing their visions regardless.

Many of the entertaining things that some players enjoy are not at all realistic in a historical sense, a few examples follow.

Harbour raids seem popular but other than Prien at Scapa and Kals at Fedala the entire U-Boat force conducted virtually no harbour attacks with torpedo or gun. To be sure, enemy harbours were entered to conduct mine laying but personal accounts indicate that was one of the worst duties a submarine could draw. SH does not simulate minelaying so conducting conventional harbour attacks in SH may be entertaining but it is hardly realistic.

How many times do gamers wander around freely while on patrol? The reality was that submarines, particularly U-Boats were at the far end of a very tight HF radio leash. Based on posts on this Forum, few (none?) send daily position reports but this was done by real U-Boats virtually up to the last year of the war. Boats transiting to their patrol areas would have to report when crossing prearranged lines of position but how many players actually do. Players don't because the AI BdU is not programmed to respond intelligently to player reports (SH4 with RSRD and TMO is generally far superior to SH3 any mod in this regard) and because radio use tends to bring on the wrath of Coastal Command. That, however was a U-Boat fact of life so keeping radio silence before the summer of 1944 is not at all realistic in most situations.

Sonar only attacks? Fun and satisfying in SH but doctrinally out of place after Feb 1942 in the Pacific and in any boat but a Type XXI in the U-Boat Waffe.

Who actually dives deep after firing acoustic torpedoes or pattern runners and stays deep until after maximum run-time as per U-Boat attack doctrine?

How many players actually plan their patrol in advance, the departure, routes to be taken and return date?

If you wish realism and a better simulation of submarine warfare it requires the player make an effort to conform to the techniques and doctrines that real commanders used on patrol. This means doing some homework a bit deeper than merely reading or watching Das Boot for the umpteenth time.

On the other hand, how anybody uses any of the SH franchise is entirely a personal matter. It can be hugely entertaining, hence the popularity of external cameras and graphic enhancements. Imposing high levels of doctrinal realism takes some of the fun from the game and there is certainly no obligation to do so. Real submarine warfare was hardly fun for the participants and so a truly realistic simulation is unlikely to be too entertaining; they are called games for that very good reason.

However one should look at realism not as something that is merely seen or the inclusion of some mundane bean-counting exercise but rather you acting in conformance to the doctrine and training in effect at the time and place that is being gamed out. You might find this approach to SH more challenging but less pure entertainment.

Probably have P.O'ed enough members by now so I'll shut up.

/agree

I don't understand the 'Das Boot' worship myself...

Yeah! Starting with me! Frassarassasassa...

Actually, that may well be the best expository on realism in gaming I've ever read. I usually do try to make daily position and weather reports, or at least write in my log that I did. I also never reload torpedoes while in combat (steep dive angles can have catastrophic results) or in any kind of bad weather unless I'm very deep.

The point I would like to add concerns the very word: realism. The word was first used by the art world in the early 1800s, and various dictionaries define it as "Treatment of forms, colors, space, etc., in such a manner as to emphasize their correspondence to actuality or to ordinary visual experience", "The representation in art or literature of objects, actions, or social conditions as they actually are, without idealization or presentation in abstract form", and "An attempt to make art and literature resemble life".

The Online Etymology Dictionary says this:
So a game can of course never be real, but it can be, by definition, realistic; and realism is a valid term for what we seek in our sims. How realistic do you want it? The real question in any historical game is "How real does it feel?" That's why we speak of immersion. While we can never have it truly feel real without some kind of 'Holodeck' technology, we can get very close to true-to-life operations with what we have today.

As for Das Boot, it definitely has its own version of 'realism', in that it comes closer to making us feel like we're there than any other movie has so far. For that reason I think most of us stand by it as the mark to hit for that type of movie, but of course like most of us I criticize the operational mistakes when compared with known actual sources.

just how real is real life anyway? can anyone prove real life is realistic? :06:


how can anyone really think a "game" should be as real as real life, real life is often too boring to make a good game anyhow.

A real life? Where can I download one of those?

Try going to the same place I went for mine :DL

http://www.disneyfrontier.com/wp-con...generator.jpeg

Unless you play with a suicide pill next to you so that Dead is truly Dead, there is no way any video game can come ANYWHERE near the realism of war. :nope:

A few of us here have been in combat situations, and it is nothing like a game. :nope:

You need a benchmark for realism in pc games . What is the most realistic pc game out there and then compare SH4 to that . SH4 with 100% realism and all cameras off and TM or RFB seems to be pretty high in realism when you are under attack by depth charges .

Don't bother, you'll drive yourself nuts. Standing back and looking at it objectively, i find it a complex issue to examine. Kinda interesting really, I think one could write a book studying this. The degree that Das Boot and the novel "Iron coffins" are held as what is tantamount to sacred religious texts despite innaccuracies is at times amusing, if not astonishing. I have to admit, i bought into it hook, line, and sinker for awhile myself. I snapped out of it while playing SH3, and had a moment that made me realize i had lost historical perspective.

As to Randomizer's post, that was one of the better posts ive read on subsim.com in quite awhile.