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-   -   Is it impossible to save the Bismarck? (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=156159)

Zilch 09-18-09 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by U2222 (Post 1174692)
Be careful Zilch, your dating yourself!!!

What is DOS?

DOS? Uh...no idea! I heard some older gamer speak of it once. I think it means, "DYsfunctional Ornithological Survey.." Yeah...that must be it...

JHuschke 09-21-09 06:18 PM

Knowing till this day still saddens me! Think of it if the Bismarck did survive, and more bigger and heavier ships were built than any other ship besides a U-boot...a total change in the outcome of the years of 1938-45!

Dread Knot 09-21-09 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHuschke (Post 1176344)
Knowing till this day still saddens me! Think of it if the Bismarck did survive, and more bigger and heavier ships were built than any other ship besides a U-boot...a total change in the outcome of the years of 1938-45!

Change of outcome with what? There were no more heavy German ships in the building after Tirpitz nor would there likely ever be. The German Z-Plan for 6 battleships, 8 heavy cruisers and four carriers by 1944 was pretty much thrown out the window the day the war started as the materials were more badly needed for the Wehrmacht and the Luftwaffe. The one aircraft carrier (Graf Zeppelin) started under the Z-Plan spent the war sitting idle in port with no planes while being slowly stripped of all useful guns and gear. Airpower had rendered battleships obsolete by war's end anyway. Bismarck's being knocked into running circles by a flimsy biplane proved that.

JHuschke 09-21-09 11:41 PM

I know...but what if the plan wasn't a total fail.. just saying if everything worked out fine what would be the outcome of WWII? :88)

U2222 09-22-09 02:08 AM

With the WW2 naval war.
Once the USA got involved, the outcome was pretty much inevitable given the might of their military / industrial power.
Just a question of how long and how many had to die in the process

Iranon 09-22-09 05:10 AM

Germany did not really have a use for bigger ships. It had no hope of matching the true naval powers of the time and the design of the ships reflects that.
They were meant to a) sink merchants b) keep enemy navies busy.

German battleships reflect these needs: They were lightly armed compared to those of other nations but fairly fast. They also did not feature an all-or-nothing armour scheme that would allow for better survivability when fighting equal foes; they were built to destroy weaker ships without taking too much damage and run away from danger.

A British battleship sunk vs. a German battleship damaged severely enough to need lengthy repairs would have been in favour of Britain, because each German capital ship was tying up many times its worth on the other side.

*

As an aside: Possibly as important as the sheer industrial power of the USA, Germany had no way to win a decisive victory against a foe that far away.
It was obvious ommerce raiding couldn't cripple it alone (realistic for the UK - Churchill was worried about that). Germany's plans for taking the fight to America were technically sweet but very ambitious for their time... not something that could be relied on and outright daydreams when fighting a costly war elsewhere.

Dread Knot 09-22-09 07:17 AM

The German surface navy probably never really had a good faith sponser with Adolf Hitler. In 1943, after the humiliating defeat in the Battle of the Barents Sea, Hitler flew into a rage and told his admirals that their Navy was "utterly useless". He railed against all big ships as a waste of resources, even going back in history to criticize the dreadnoughts of the Imperial German High Seas Fleet in WWI. He wanted all the remaining heavy ships scrapped, and their guns removed for use as coastal defences. Doenitz talked him out of it but you can't help but wonder if he was venting a belief he had held all along.

JHuschke 09-22-09 06:41 PM

Yes, but it is also true that Hitler had little or no interest in the U-boats and had huge interest in giant battleships like the Bismarck, it is sad to see he did not put in much "effort" into the Kriegsmarine as he "did" into other branches of the German army.

Dread Knot 09-22-09 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHuschke (Post 1177053)
Yes, but it is also true that Hitler had little or no interest in the U-boats

Unfortunately, he was interested enough to meddle. The 20 U-Boats sent to guard the coast of Norway from an imaginary invasion and the constant stream of boats directed on a one-way trip to the Mediterranean to 'support' Mussolini and Rommel were good examples of Hitler overriding Doenitz's wishes and interfering in matters he didn't understand. It certainly sapped the effort needed to fight the Battle of the Atlantic.

Pacific_Ace 09-22-09 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHuschke (Post 1177053)
Yes, but it is also true that Hitler had little or no interest in the U-boats and had huge interest in giant battleships like the Bismarck, it is sad to see he did not put in much "effort" into the Kriegsmarine as he "did" into other branches of the German army.

Your desire to see a bigger German navy in WW2 is laudable, but misguided. Germany had an excellent industrial base compared to other European nations. Compared to the USA it was a joke.
On entry to the war America alone had 7 carriers and 17 BB's with 4 more coming online before August of 1942.

By wars end America turned out the following:
Large Fleet Carriers (CVB)- 2 (late 45, no action)
Fleet Carriers (CV)
Lexington Class- 2
Ranger Class- 1
Yorktown Class- 2
Wasp Class- 1
Hornet Class- 1
Essex Class- 17
------------------------------
Total CV's 26

Light Carriers (CVL)
Independance Class- 9
Saipan Class- 2
----------------------------
Total CVL 11

Escort Carriers (CVE)
Long Island Class- 2
Bogue Class- 11
Sangamon Class- 4
Casablanca Class- 50
Commencement Bay Class- 16 with 3 more in 1946
----------------------------------------------
Total CVE's - 83

Total carriers @ end of 1945 - 120

Thats JUST carriers. Think about the hundreds of cruisers, destroyers, subs and merchants the US also turned out.
Germany could have had 20 Bismarks and 20 Graf Zepplins and the only thing that might have happened was the war gets prolonged to the point that Berlin gets nuked as well. As for winning the war, there was zero chance of that happening after Hitler declared war on the US. I'm not even mentioning Russia here. All those capital ships would have served Germany better if the steel had been used for U-Boats.

Zilch 09-22-09 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pacific_Ace (Post 1177137)
All those capital ships would have served Germany better if the steel had been used for U-Boats.

That, and Me-262's, used in their intended interceptor role as opposed to the vengeance bomber that Hitler wanted. Again, it would have drawn out the war even longer, but the end result, I think, would have been the same.

$0.02


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