Go through the war records and compare sunk and damaged ships....put's things in perspective.

Torpedos
 

Hello here's a little info that may help,
By 1943, with the submarine fleet still unable to prove their overall effectiveness, boat captains were once again casting the blame for their troubles on faulty ordnance. Patrols returned to base with tales of torpedoes which would explode about half of the time. Finally convinced that the MK VI influence exploder was the culprit, Lockwood ordered them to be disconnected. But the saga of defective weapons continued. As numerous patrol reports continued to describe perfect set ups followed by torpedoes striking the targets but failing to explode, (one account detailed an attack where 13 out of 15 hits did not detonate) Lockwood ordered new tests to be conducted. Firing torpedoes at a vertical cliff face, the duds were closely examined. It was determined the when a torpedo struck at a 90º degree angle (which was considered ideal) the firing pin would often become distorted before it could contact the explosive cap. The results confirmed what many had feared, that submarines went into battle armed with defective weapons. Installing a stronger firing pin resolved the issue of malfunctioning torpedoes virtually overnight. The resulting dramatic increase in tonnage scores removed any doubt as to the cause of the problem that bedeviled the submarine fleet during the first few years of WW II. I'm currently reading the book, "Wahoo" by Richard H. O'Kane, Rear Admiral, USN. In the book he explains that they received a better explosive torpedo war head, called Torpex, composed of TNT and metal flakes, these seemed to make a big difference to him. Websteres has a great little mod that increases the explosive power of the torpedos 1,2,3 times you could use that mod. I'm am currently running 1.4 verson and Trigger Maru for 1.4, (it is also made in a version for 1.5) TM seems to have addressed this torp issue. howeever I incourage you not to become dishartened, keep tring new set ups on Marus, and maybe try some of the great mods that are out there, that address many issues in the stock game. As Okane says in his book... Never give up!!!! SHOOT THE SONS OF BITCHES. Indy:salute:

Armistead: Put things in perspective? I AM. I am going buy books written by actual commanders. Where do you find honest to god war records? Are the ships described in the war records ships that were damaged by a submarine fired torpedo, or by surface gun action, following a failed torpedo attack?

Indy: Thank you for the post there, it kinda enforces what I have been saying. Torpedo failures were high, and was the reason for multiple shots. I am going to look up those torpedo mods, and if I can get more info about the blast radius of one of those warheads.

Around my area we recently had a cargo ship lightly (read that, lightly) brush up on a pylon of a bridge here. The result was a large hole formed by crumpled hull plates. It needed to be floated, and dry docked for several weeks of repair. No explosive was involved here. If a light brush with a concrete pylon can cause such damage, then what can an explosion do? look at the damage to the Uss Cole when a boat of suicide bombers detonated their charge quite a way from the hull. The Cole had to be littereally lifted out of the water and transported on the back of a huge vessle back to the states.

Perspective, how about actual physics? Watch some episodes of Mythbusters to see the power of some relatively small blasts, they will astonish you. Explosives are no joke.

Greek destroyer ADRIAS
 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...7/Adrias-1.jpg
The Hellenic Navy destroyer ADRIAS (Hunt III class), was loaned by Great Britain to Greece a little before her completion. She operated in the Meditteranean Sea from the Allied port of Alexandria in Egypt.

She sunk U-553 and U-623.
She participated in Sicily landing operations sinking two German torpedo boats in cooperation with HMS QUANTOCK. She escorted numerous convoys throughout the Med campaign and she was present in the surrender of the Italian Fleet, representing Greece.

Operating with a task force near the Greek island of Calymnos, she hit a mine. The mine's explosion completely cut off the bow of the ship:o, from the bow to the bridge's superstructure. HMS HURWORTH racing to the rescue of HN ADRIAS, also hit a mine and sunk.

HN ADRIAS rescued the survivors of HMS HURWORTH and sailed to neutral Turkey where she made minor repairs before departure.

She sailed the stormy Aegean Sea in December, making a trip of about 800nm before arriving at the port of Alexandria in December 6, 1943, (St. Nicholas Feast, the protector of sailors), throughout cheers and celebrations of all the Allied ships anchored there, showing exceptionally seamanship and giving a morale boost to all Allied sailors who couldn't believe their eyes.

Hellenic Navy honored HN ADRIAS by giving it's glorious name to a modern frigate of HN.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...9/Adrias-2.jpg

This is hard to put into words without causing a fight. Pythos, I want you to know that I both agree and disagree with you, and I'm not trying to argue or prove you wrong.

The problem I see there is that 1/2" of steel is strong, but that "light brush" involved a force of several thousand tons being applied to a relatively small area.

Agreed, and photos of torpedo damage certainly back up your summation. On the other hand the Cole is a fairly small ship and that big hole didn't sink her.

As I described, I've read a report of at least one merchant absorbing several torpedo hits before succumbing, but I've also read of one merchant hit by a dud torpedo that ruptured a couple of seams, and poor management and damage control led to that merchant's demise. I've also read of merchants splitting in half, one half sinking and the other being towed to a safe port.

My bottom line is that if a ship takes a lot of damage and still escapes - well, it really happened. If, on the other hand, it happens consistently with one type of ship in the game (as you say happens with this type), then it is a problem and needs to be looked at.

I am not trying to cause a fight. I just would like to engage one of these ships, and when my shot does what it should, for me not to have to go in a totally unrealistic running gun battle at flank speeds.

I wouldn't feel the need for this, if SH4 didn't cheat you of a confirmation if the ship is out of crew visual range (note, crew visual range, not player's), which is something that happened to me with a liberty ship I did a lousy shot with and hit the bow. This one also ran off, at reduced speed. But I did not give chase with the gun because the deck gun crews on these are very good. So I let it go out of visual range of the telescope, surfaced, and manned the gun, and I started firing manually. The ship sank, but my crew did not have it visual. So I got no credit for this one.

That is another issue, for another thread.

The point of this post was to bring up the problem, in hopes someone with the know how would look into it.

The story of that destroyer is also another example of a "gallant ship and crew". The usual result of a mine hit for almost all other vessels was a very quick trip to the muddy bottom. A grand example being the Britanic, with a relatively small charge mine.

As far as I know, yes, there is a range you must be from the sunken ship to get credit. But this has been addressed before, and it is hard-coded.
There's nothing we can do to change that.

But I also do not find anything unrealistic about a merchant surviving one torpedo hit while maintaining "some" speed. I posted the example of the destroyer to show you that in real life there are no hit-points.

Who would believe that this little DE would make the 800nm trip to base in winter? I would certainly report to BDU that it sunk, if I torpedo her and look at this damage...

Imagine now a 8000-10000 ton ship. 4-5 times the tonnage of Adrias, with vast watertight compartments. You may find it realistic to sit dead in the water and sinking with one 500 pound torpedo hit. I certainly don't. Yes, it may sink, but it may not!!!

That's the beauty of simulation! No given results. No repeated results.
It may sink with one eel today, or with 2-3 tommorow...

The RFB merchant sinking model we're talking about is a diamond, a jewel!
Once i played the game with NSM, I cannot return to hit-point system.
It's like shoot'em up...

If you're complaining about a merchant surviving one eel, what will you say when the RFB warships sinking model will be completed, and you may, or you may not sink a battleship with 5-6 torpedoes?

Without offence my friend, maybe it will be better for you to return to stock sinkings if you expect this sinking behavior from big merchants...

It's your opinion, I respect it, but I cannot agree that there is something not realistic about the sinking physics discussed here.

Cheers!
Billy.

I knew you weren't. I just wanted to make sure you knew I wasn't arguing just to prove you wrong. There definitely is a problem here if this is a consistent ocurrance.

I completely agree - all of the above could be better. Unfortunately I don't have a clue how to fix much of anything, least of all this.




On a different note, I found the records I mentioned earlier. This is a rare ocurrance, so don't read too much into it, other than the frustrations some real captains went through.

On January 17, 1943, USS Whale attacked Heiyo Maru. Whale's account comes from the patrol report filed by Lt. Cmdr. John B. Azer, as recounted in United States Submarine Operations in World War II, by Theodore Roscoe. Heiyo Maru's account is from the Senji Yuso Sendan Shi (Wartime Transportation Convoys History), by Shinschichiro Komamiya.

Fired three torpedoes. Three hits. One hit aft of his stack, the second blew wreckage up through forward hold and the third hit aft. Target started turning toward us. Swung hard right and set up for a stern shot.

1404 From 80 degrees off the port side torpedo tracks were discovered, immediately a turn to port to the utmost was ordered.


1405 The first torpedo hit, it struck at No. 1 hold on the port side but the explosion was thought to have occurred on the opposite side. The Gunnery Force meanwhile had opened fire at the point where it was believed the torpedoes were coming from. At the same time emergency message was sent by radio.

(Whale fired three torpedoes in her opening attack and claimed three hits!)

Fired single stern shot at range of 600 yards. Hit aft. This was a good hit, stopping the target cold. The target was sinking by the stern, taking considerable port list. Took pictures, firmly convinced this was the graveyard of another Japanese ship. Many of the crew had an opportunity to view the sinking ship through the periscope.

1409 A torpedo seen approaching from 90 degrees to port, another full turn to port was ordered.


1410 The second torpedo hit, it exploded in the engine room sending flames high into the sky and down into the ocean. At this time Hieyo Maru lost all way and her radio broke down.

(Whale fired one torpedo for a claimed hit in her second attack.)

1420 Flooding in No. 1 hold reached to the middle deck, steering became impossible. Because of this abandon ship was ordered and lifeboats began to be lowered.

Having worked up to windward to observe target better, was astonished to find the fire under control and the list corrected. Water was being pumped over the side through portable hoses. Fired another torpedo from the stern tube, but this missed. Target was dead in the water, shooting wildly with deck guns.

1500 A third torpedo struck the port side in the region of No. 4 hold.

(Whale fired another torpedo but did not claim a hit.)

Crew and passengers abandoned ship, although gun crew remained at posts. Target settled about ten feet overall and then maintained its depth. Closed and fired sixth torpedo from bow tubes. This hit aft of superstructure depth.

1530 A fourth torpedo struck the port side in the region of No. 4 hold.

(Whale fired a singly torpedo for a claimed hit.)

Target still floating. Fired seventh torpedo from bow tubes. This hit with terrific concussion, but did not change trim or draft appreciably.

1550 A fifth torpedo exploded on the starboard side in No. 1 hold, the shock destroyed the forward gun platform and the guns fell silent, by then they had fired a total of sixteen rounds.

(Whale fired one torpedo for a claimed hit.)

Fired eighth torpedo from stern tubes. This was heard to hit, but very little concussion was felt.

1610 Flood waters reached the middle deck in the region of No. 4 hold, by now the ship had a five degree list to port although she was still on an even keel, in fact Heiyo Maru was sinking albeit slowly.


1640 the ship's captain and the last fifty‑six members of her crew finally left the ship.

(Whale fired another torpedo about this time which missed.)

Getting dark. Target sinking slowly on an even keel, but still looks salvageable. There was no sign of life aboard, although it was believed gun crews had not yet abandoned ship. Wishing to dispose of it before arrival of planes or rescue ships, fired ninth torpedo. This hit right under stack and the explosion ripped away both sides of vessel about ten feet below the main deck.

1700 a sixth torpedo hit in the vicinity of the engine room on the starboard side.

(Whale fired her ninth torpedo for a claimed hit.)

Heiyo Maru started to list to starboard.

Target now settled more rapidly, the main deck being a few feet from wash condition at last observation. This vessel had absorbed seven and possibly eight torpedo hits. The cargo must have been of such nature as to prevent her from sinking more rapidly. Target was identified as the Heiyou Maru, 9,815 tons.

1900 her bow rose almost vertically and on fire in three separate places after explosions she sank.

On retiring we found ourselves in the midst of eight boats full of survivors, approximately fifty men to each boat. These men were dressed in both white and blue uniforms. One boat was passed close aboard, and survivors made ready to hit the periscope with their oars.

The survivors drifted for the following five days before being rescued by another ship.
At the time of her loss Heiyo Maru was carrying provisions and 4000 tons of military equipment (or ammunition!); of her 1753 passengers about 900 plus forty‑seven crewmen lost their lives.

Heiyo Maru had a tonnage of 9815 and was owned by the Nippon Yusen Kaisha line.

So Heiyo Maru was not carrying a cargo which would keep her afloat, as speculated by Cmdr Azel. Note that there are some discrepancies in the accounts, and that Cmdr Azel did not put times into his reports, so it's hard to match them exactly.

That hit's the nail on the head. Of course mods effect everything. However, take the this same ship. I've sunk it with one torp and sometimes 4.

As stated how it sinks in the game is related to it's cargo load, which can be numerous things, internal or external or both. Then the crew status which can be poor to elite and many others in between. Then mods that have redone the damage zones..in a realistic way. I hit one last night with a M10 and massive explosion and sunk right away....it was full of ammo. There are several other factors, but these are the 3 main ones.

If someone wants easy play over realistic play there are several mods that can fix that.

Patrol report. Here are two ships about the same size of the LC that took 2 torps each and didn't sink...one was a tanker. In every sub report reports like this are common.


After a month of heavy seas, plane contacts, and no enemy shipping, Becuna reached her patrol area south of Formosa. Upon surfacing on the night of September 25, 1944, the lookouts sighted a small convoy of three marus and a Minekaze class destroyer emerging from a rain squall. The diving alarm rang out and the boat went to "Battle stations submerged" for the first time under combat conditions. It was decided to take out the escort first, and as the destroyer overlapped another ship, six torpedoes were fired. One explosion was heard and the destroyer closed to counter-attack, preventing Becuna from surveying her success. After the depth-charging subsided, she surfaced. Her targets had escaped into the rain storm.
On October 8, while patrolling north of the Palawan Passage, Becuna located a heavily-escorted tanker. Capt. Sturr fired two torpedoes at the vessel containing valuable oil for the Nippon war machine. Forced down by vengeful escorts, Becuna's crew heard two definite explosions but was unable to verify success visually. The destroyers dropped forty depth charges but were unable to cause significant damage. Post war records reveal that Kimikawa Maru (6863 tons) suffered major damage. The next day Becuna sighted a twelve-ship convoy and alerted her fellow wolfpack subs, USSBaya SS-318 and USS Hawkbill SS-366. After tracking the convoy for some time, the enemy changed course and steamed directly at grateful Becuna. In a daylight periscope attack, Sturr selected a large and small tankers and delivered a torpedo salvo of two apiece. He scored two hits on San Luis Maru (7268 tons) and two hits on Tokuwa Maru (1943 tons). San Luis Maru suffered moderate damage and Tokuwa Maru, who promptly sank

YOu all seem to not understand my problem. In that record posted by sailor steve (very compelling by the way, I liked), the ship lost all way when the torpedo hit the machinery section. I hit the machinery section, my target fled away at high speed.

It is not the sinking I am having an issue about. It is the mortally wounded ship running off as if nothing happened.

As far as the number of torpedoes shot, what the hell was that skipper doing? His target was stopped, and sinking, albeit slowly. What an absolute waste of torps. If the ship is dead in the water, then I lie in wait, or surface and shell it, if they have no guns. I also position my boat so that if the target shows any sign of moving off, I can do a snap shot at it with two or one more torp, right at under the funnel. It is not just common but good design practice to have the funnel over the boilers, this for propper ventelation of the smoke, it is much less efficient to have bends and curves in this channel. Hit the boilers, the ship is done for.

many ships in the game dont have complete damage models.

some show visual damage but have no real damage because the file for that area of the ship wasnt made or is incomplete so there is nothing there to damage as far as the game knows. some ships never show visual damage but they do get damaged so it depends.

it seems that every single ship in the game has problem areas somewhere, from the way it floats to the way it sinks or visual damage being shown to some parts of ships being indestructable because there is no file made to record damage to that area.


read this thread and you will better understand whats going on in the game: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=137911

The damage model used by this ships was developed by "Observer" for RFB and is also used in OM. A little FYI is that this ship has "two propellers" and "two" engine rooms, one on the port side and one on the starboard side, so if you hit one engine room the other is still up and operational .

My recommendation to you is launch a "two" torpedo salvo with a 2 degree spread.


I also recommend that you should also "download" the OM_v705_to_V710 upgrade.


Lastly I'm not going to tell you "if you don't like the mod, don't use it" but what I'm going to say is this, "If you don't like the way SH4 acts then go make changes that will make it do what 'you' want it to do.

In the case of this thread, I would recommend that you read this:

http://forum.kickinbak.com/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=1378

It's a detailed "how to guide" on ship damage models, then download S3D and fix it yourself