You're absolutely right there, it kinda reminds me of the Matrix with the 'system' being seen for the first time. The image is what the US auto industry has relied on quite strongly and when that image goes the industry will suffer. Ford has been trying to revive the Mustang, a car I like but don't think it'll be enough to save them.

Same goes for Coca-Cola too, a company built on a brand. When the image goes the brand dies and the whole house of cards will come down. Or maybe Coca-Cola won't go belly up, it's such a permanent fixture of the world, a global brand that'll stick around at least for now.

You are quite correct. But they are the only ones solely concentrating their efforts on this segment. Name me one top of the line, competetive, sucessful US middle class Sedan. I personally loved the Chrysler 300M when it came out, just for looks. Lot's of potential at least stylewise again. Finally cars that at least "look" cool and american. But the technology simply is not up to date.

Sure something has to give here...the union has to give. They have put the automakers in a proverbial head-lock. Let strike for bigger pools and long vacations, etc. Toyota provides excellent healthcare and retirement to the plant workers in the south. There is no union crushing the very life out of the company. There is no cheap Mexican labor here on our soil for the auto industry. Most if not all parts are made in Mexico or Canada! They have their piece of the pie. The Toyota model of manufacturing works and for the good of all in the company. The company does not have expensive white people. They provide pay that is up to the standard of living in the area the workers live. Detroit has been run by the union for eons. Time for them to go.

It is not even the matter of big sedans, etc. It is the fact that Toyota, Nissan build very dependable cars. The last GM product I purchased was a new Monte Carlo in 1988. It was the biggest POS I ever bought and will never purchase a GM product again. However, I have two Ford products that are just wonderful and a Dodge product that is just wonderful. People look at quality as well as looks. I think the quality of Ford is just fine as I have had good luck with them. Same with Dodge. As far as technology, yes, the Japanese have an upper hand. The issue is GM and Ford were provided the opportunity to get the upper hand with billions given months ago. They have nothing to show for it. Not a great way of getting more money. The Dems will pass this bill. Too many subsidiaries that supply parts will go under as well. So this is all mute anyway. The big three need to get on the stick this time.

*nods* you are probably right. It still is a pity.

Remember that the government bailed GM out once in 1979. There was a big gas crisis that makes our recent troubles look like nothing. What did GM do to itself to bring on the 1979 bailout? They made huge hooptie gas guzzlers. The same thing they did this time. When people wanted hybrids what did they give us? Hummers that got 10 miles to the gallon. After the free market threatens to put them in the grave again, they want more money? They did not learn their lesson in 1979 obviously. Why bail them out again? So they can just run things into the ground and let the tax payers foot the bill? Where is the incentive to run a good business? I would run my business sloppy if I knew the governement would bail me out.

As for unions, well they aren't the problem in my opinion. Sure, you could pay them all minimum wage. That would be good for business. However everytime the republicans let corporations take a huge steamy dump on the voters under the banner of "deregulation" we get a democratic president. Clinton came into power under a bad economy, so did Obama. Destroying the workers lives for corporate profit isn't a viable solution.

You are correct in your first paragraph which is my point, more good money after bad. Like I posted a few back, GM was given billions to make a car with new energy saving tech....we got nothing. So, screw the bail out. As far as the union, I have seen more unions break a company then make a company. 'nough said. How are we destroying workers lives at the plants? They have more benefits than I have fingers. They have a pay scale far and above a lot of American yet these people out side of the plant scrimping by are to pay for $41000.00 vehicles? Just like me! So, tell me, how many hybrid Toyotas are really out there to choose from? It ain't about hybrids. It is about looks and quality. GM has ugly cars and the quality stopped around 1973. GM has the hybrids and gas sippers like the Cavalier...they are just ugly and not very dependable. Poor quality with dog butt ugly looks=lost business.

Gentlemen:
I do not advocate the bailout. That said, they [GM] goes belly up and worse yet the suppliers to GM fall with that too [domino effect] promptly.

That means looking in the "BIG" picture 1 or 2 Americans no longer have a job from the ripple effect over TIME ... not over night, just over a period of time. Pay now, or pay later - which one you want?

These endless RANTS of who is at fault, and they should have had an electric car/vehicle will NOT solve the problem overnight.

I have two credit cards. Neither one EVER had a balance due that I could not meet over 25+ years and if, I came short to make ends meet, I owed the company less than $1,000 bucks - happened two or three times and I paid off my debt the next month - happens to all of us.

That said, TOO MANY people live day-by-day high off the hog of owing money and it has caught up with us - the MILLIONS of people living financially beyond their means is SICKENING [credit cards, 2nd mortgage, home equity loans, etc].

Glad to see it happen, but those folks that have lived for years not paying down their debt are killing ALL of us now.

I have less than 4 years to pay off my house with payments around $250/month and I watch it's value go down the tubes - like all of us.

Stop living high off the hog, financially speaking.

$PAY$ your bills.

To both of you guys: (Bewolf i assume you mean mid size sedan?)
The last GM product I had was a 1996 Buick Century. I put 300 thousand miles on it over a period of 4 years with very little maintenance. Nothing flashy but certainly a very dependable vehicle.

The main problem with this issue is timing.

Right now is a bad time to let any big companies fail. From what I've read 1 out of 10 jobs in America would suffer if the big three go down. (I don't know that for a fact because I'm just not that smart.)

It's not just the manufacturing plant and the people building the car. All the way from the guys who mine the ore to make the metal, the steel mills, the tire makers, all the suppliers for all of the different components, the dealership and beyond, those peoples jobs would also be in danger

If I was "the decider" sitting there with my thumb up my arse right now, and someone told me we need 25b dollars so 10% of Americans don't lose their jobs of the next six months, I'd write the damn check, quickly.



It should not be up to the people or government to have to bail out companies [in any sector] because they made bad decisions.

I do agree that it's the companies that made mistakes that eventually contributed to the situation. If they could each make at least one car with the gas mileage and quality of a Honda or Toyota then there wouldn't be as much of a problem (maybe).

I agree that the unions are a big ball and chain dragging them down making them less competitive. Still it's no excuse for the other problems they could solve.

The car companies are in part suffering because of the economic crisis and the overall state of the economy. It's this reason and the 10% of the jobs, I say help them out for now. Make it a loan. Make them pay it back in cars if they have to.

One other thing I'd add to the check. Cash this and you agree that no one person in your company can receive compensation above $255,000 year. Why 255? So they can reap the rewards of Obama's new tax plan. :)



Side note: Place part of the blame with the American car buyer as well. Drive down any US highway today and what do you see. SUV's, pickups, crossovers, huge gas guzzlers, and a few Japanese hybrids.

There's people there driving 4x4 4door longbed pickups to work every day. The only time the truck sees any offroad activity is when someone backs over the planter while leaving the driveway. In part, we did this to ourselves. If we didn't buy the big piles of crap, they wouldn't make them.

I agree with you about trucks when it comes to city dwellers and even most suburbanites, but for country folks it's a very different story. Trucks are almost mandatory. Even I find that my old dodge pickup is so useful as a general hauler up at my place in Maine that i've kept it on the road as a 2nd vehicle. Whether its hauling firewood or trash or building materials, none of that could be done in the glorified rollerskates that the social engineers want to shoe horn us all into.

I don't think it's a hybrid or SUV issue. Honestly I think everyone who wants what they are making has one. The market is flooded and I don't think the demand is there like it used to be. My car is older, so what? The market just doesn't need 100,000 new cars every 24 hours.

I had a Toyota Camry once. When a lady in a white Acura killed it, there were 397,000 miles on the odometer. The only issues I had with the vehicle were front end problems that would not have occurred had I not been an invincible teenager, and the alternator went out.

After her demise, I acquired a Ford of equal age that had undergone much more extensive maintenance and had been driven very conservatively. There were around 97,000 miles on it. I had it less than a year when the transmission just up and quit working.

I then bought a 2000 Toyota Tundra V8. 90,000 miles on it. 157,000 now. Only problem? A loose throttle sensor cable, and better gas mileage than the V6 Ford (due to the Fords degredation).

My experiences with Dodges has been similar, though second hand and more limited than my experiences with Fords. Chevy's I've heard tend to be a bit more reliable. I've rarely hard anything bad about a Toyota or Honda, and personal experience with both backs up every good thing I've heard second hand.

If US car makers cannot give me a vehicle equal to the one I now own, I will not buy a vehicle from them. Why would I? Patriotism? Sorry, this patriot likes his car to start when he turns the key so that he can continue earning an Uncle Sam-taxed paycheck.

Oh, August is quite right about the necessity of a truck (or an El Camino:D) in rural areas.

here i had to search the cardboard boxes but i found it gallery 1 gallery 2 .
personnally i think that the governments shouldn't interfere with the economy by injecting founds i mean when you create a company in a capitalism system you know that bankrupcy's part of the game if the country interfere this way then we'll never know if capitalism's a good thing or not ; a country wants to become the owner of a company or a shareholder no problem but giving founds like we see it actually it's cautioning the thoughtless risk-taking

on that i'm gonna take my (ecological) scooter head to the closest supermarket and buy myself ingredients to make me fresh nice hamburgers http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...icons/bien.gif

@August: yes, mid size sedan is what I wanted to express. Freud obviously got the better of me. Thanks for bringing this up.


@jpm: there are some true classics amongst these cars!
Which brings me to another question, capitalistic system or not, but would american pride actually allow the loss of it's domestic car industry? AFAIK US cars are one of the great symbols of the US. Losing these could become very bitter. How is that seen?