Ahem, not exactly true. A religious Israel would only be legal to be founded after the Messiah comes along and the temple is rebuild.
Herzl was a nationalist who believed in racial theory, securing the jewish race a place alongside the germanic race. Ben Gurion held similar beliefs.
Many other founding fathers were socialist or even communist.

The whole "state of god" idea is something the Israelis use since Reagan's times to fool the US religious right into supporting them
Of course many jews are religious, but the nation itself has secular roots, with marked exceptions for religion like talmud students being exempt from conscription.
Funny is that you could safely consider Israel to be the most "socialist" western nation, so it is kind of surprising that the favorite nation of the american religious right actually would be utterly despised if it were any other nation.

Israel relies on superior military might, good intelligence and conscription, not on divine intervention.
If the old testament tells you one thing, it is that even the Israelites shouldn't rely too much on divine intervention....
:rotfl:

@anteater

but why rely on the old testament (or new testament, quran, book of mormon, vedas, pitakas, or necronomicon) when good old-fashioned greed, bigotry, deceit, and ignorance are so much more useful when it comes to getting what you want? :shifty:

Relying on the Necronomicron....

http://bookstoysgames.files.wordpres...ng?w=420&h=420

:rotfl:

Thats for people who grow up with God, people who didn't will cry for there mom. :yep:

**** happens. And better luck next time.

Well I for one would have read the entire report before making a decision, rather then only reading the front page summary which it would seem was the only thing most politicians read. The summary was very misleading and even completely erroneous as to the contents of the report. The actual intelligence (which was in the full report) at the time believed quite the opposite, that there was little evidence that Sadam had or was trying to make nuclear or biological weapons. As for chemical weapons it was also doubted if Sadam had the capacity to produce them any more (this was something the UN was monitoring for). Also Sadam had no real links to terrorism and Al Queda (unlike say the US ally Saudi Arabia). The fact that Sadam was an evil vile man is true, but then a large chunk of the world is run by men like him. Freeing the iraqi people was not the key objective (though it does sound good in the media).

Shame hardly anyone read the report before voting to go to Iraq. But then that seems to be the norm for most politicians.. do the absolute minimum and above all avoid reading anything (and that goes for all politicians in just about any country).

That is incorrect. We had as much reason to want Saddam gone as anyone.

[/quote]
Ok, to play devils advocate here, can you cite your sources? If your statements are true, then Israel should have been held accountable for their actions.

In regards to Saddam Hussein he was a threat, whether or not it was intimidate is debatable but a threat is still a threat.

And no country or person should be a "sacred cow", everyone regardless of their position/wealth/social status/ect, should be held to the exact same standards. With that I completely agree.

[/quote]

Israel has been a sacred cow since it's founding. If you dare question their foriegn policy you are immediately labeled anti-semetic and the Israelis are then allowed to plug their ears and go "la la la, I can't hear you racist scum" as they storm out of the room.

I don't have any leaked Mossad memos, but do you really need one to know they were high fiving each other in Israel when Saddam was hung?

Look at what happened to Jonathan Pollard. I mean really, "with friends like Israel", who needs enemys?

This is pissing me off too. We are obliged to be respectful of Jews, but how much longer can we stand still since Israel stole, (yes: stole) the land from the palestinians and treats them like animals. The whole conflict between the West and Islam, it's all about Israel, and by pouring more oil into the fire (Iraq) the US have ensured that it will last for some more decades.

I hope I don't get accused of being antisemitic - but it would be anice change nice change from being a leftist on this forum.

That easy and simplified it is NOT.

While Muhammad certainly was pissed of the Jewish pharisees proving to be superior to his own little aergument he hoped to have with them to find himself as an equal if not superior to them, and this narcissistic deficit of his character having been the basis for islam's deep-rooting disgust of and even hate for the Jews and their refomed version, the christians, it does not mean that if Israel would suddenly disappear by miracle and wonder, or the issues at least being solved, Islam'S unforgiving attitude towards other cultures, and it'S claim of needing to be seen as the penultimate authority worldwide, winning world rulership and creating peace by wiping out everything that could rise a challenge to it, would suddenly disappear. And the conflict between shia and sunni, Saudi-Arabian and Persian dominance, the old muslim coivil war, still would be there. And i always have said that this story by far outshines the Palestinian conflict in importance, and even makes pragmatic, ideologic use if it. Note that the Sunni states do not care much for the Palestinians anyway, and Palestine and Lebanon has become a playground for a püroxy confrotnation between Sunni Saudi arabia and Shia Iran.

the inner Islamic ideology, and this centuries-old inner conflict are the real keys to the situation in the ME. The palestinian'S fault is that they are sitting betwee all chairs, have made too many wrong decisions and now have nobody anymore who wants to deal with them. Which to a major part is their own fault, since they have bitten to many Arab hands that were offered them to their assistance. Believe me, I have seen it in almpost all Muslims nations where I have been: the disgust for the Palestinians is very widespread, and very intense. Only propagandists use their case for their opportunistic purposes.

Get a solution between Israel and the Palestinians, all fine with me, it's okay. just do not expect it to be the key to solving the ME. It is NOT.

The area was under British rule for a long time. The British were in fact playing both ends at the same time. They wanted Jewish help in fighting germany in WWI, but then even ignored the UN in the 40's because they did not want to lose their rule in the region due to Israel becoming a state again after 2000 years of exile. The Jews stole nothing but were given the status of statehood with borders that were always national Israel dating back several thousand years.

OMFG I wish. No troops until my stockpile of bombs is emptied. Reactivate all the B-52's and carpet bomb everything flat! Make Dresden look like a candle flame. Arclight 4tw.

Forget installing democracy. Bulldoze whats left and put up a few casinos and some oil refineries, oh and a KFC. We'll call it New Texas or something.

Bet you guys are glad "W" did it and not me. Things can always be worse.

Of course as a NYC cop and witnessing the carnage and surffering the losses of 911 1st hand, maybe I would tend to overreact. But you know what ...I don't care..

No, not really. The war of 91 had pulled his teeth, and very much so. His threat potential ended at the border of Iraq, and that he terrorised his own population (to a level that nevertheless was far below the suffering and detah caused by the war of 2003) was with american acceptance and permission, when the rebellion of the Shia was betrayxed by Washington and they ordered their troops to just watch when he struck them and masacred them by the thousands. Back then he still was seen as an antidot to Iran - even after the war 1991, and may it only have been for the purpose to prevent Iraq falling to Iranian influence. Even for small Kuwait he was no realistic offensive threat anymore. And different to what the war coalition tried to make the world believe, he was not stupid enough to actively engaed in supporting terrorism against the US - he knew that this would only be a trigger for causing a massive American retaliation, and a final war crushing him. That'S why he used words and carefully dosed provokations to poke the Amerians sometimes with a fine and small needle. But in no way he was in a position to stab them with a knife, or strike with a sword: he had none anymore.

It is within the interest of any future American president to get the vast American Jewish votership on side, they, the American Jewish community and Diaspora, account for a vast percentage of very affluent to very powerful and business astute individuals in the US. To have this gang on side one must continue to be seen shaking hands with, the only, so called democracy in the middle east, Israel.
Its a little like every America president likes to tap in to the Irish American vote too, as there are an estimated 40 million Irish Americans, again a very large number of votes if you have them onside.
What’s more, with a name like “O’Bama”, he really is Irish isn’t he!!
Just my 2 cent worth…….