SUBSIM Radio Room Forums - Quest for Realism

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- - Quest for Realism (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=130494)

There's another really interesting discussion here (or at least I find it so) that hasn't yet been touched upon, but is directly related to your question.

No fear.

We've been talking about this issue as it relates to "simulations" for years. It applies not only to sub sims, but to combat sims of any type, as well as wargaming in general.

The problem is that there is no penalty - other than the time it takes to reload a save - for being overly aggressive and making that last big mistake. Even the extreme approach of never reloading a save, but forcing yourself to start a new career if you "die", doesn't come close to approximating what it must feel like to put yourself, and perhaps the lives of others under your command, in harms way.

If it were for real, would you really press the attack to get that one last torpedo shot with those DDs bearing down on you? In the game, I'm sure most of us do it all the time... and get away with it 99% of the the time.

Which brings me to a second point. Foreknowledge... knowledge that you have, based on technical or historical information, that was not available to the people who were actually there. For instance, platform capabilities and limitations (eg, weapons and sensors), force dispositions, orders of battle, etc. There's also the matter of tactics, strategy, doctrine... knowing what works and what doesn't, knowing how the enemy will respond in a given situation (because of training, C3I issues, etc.).

Patterns (eg, Japanese actions and responses stemming from their overestimation of the influence of the US Isolationist movement prior to WWII) and truths (eg, the superiority of airpower vs capital ships) that are evident from a distance in time, may not have been evident at the time.

Hindsight presents a huge advantage to us, given that the people who were there as "the book" was being written - however prescient they may seem now - were just keeping their fingers crossed and acting with what they hoped were appropriate measures of caution, courage and audacity.

Then finally there's the experience you gain from playing the game. Understanding how those technical capabilities and other elements discussed above are quantified in the game and knowing how the AI will respond in a given situation, are advantages that, I think, requires no further explanation.

The only way I have found to overcome these limitations of gaming is to exercise self discipline... learn as much as you can (or need to) about the history and then mentally place yourself in the historical context and act accordingly.

Yes, it's entirely possible to do this... and, IMHO, if you get good at it, it adds a lot to the gaming experience. For me, it's a big part of the suspension of disbelief phenomenon.

JD

Quote:

Originally Posted by Powerthighs

By the way, take some time with stock SH4 and get used to manual targeting before you apply the suggestions above. The higher traffic is a nice way to get the training you need to make the shots when it counts later.

I agree here! After a while of this you will want a bit more of challenge in actually hunting the vessels getting a good feel for how it was in the PTO for the subs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdkbph

Very well said :up:

[quote=capt_frank]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdkbph

The problem is that there is no penalty - other than the time it takes to reload a save - for being overly aggressive and making that last big mistake. If it were for real, would you really press the attack to get that one last torpedo shot with those DDs bearing down on you?
JD

Oh, I got that covered. Every time the DD's start dropping tin cans on me, I throw a few M-80's under my desk and knock over the fish tank.
:arrgh!:

Implement a policy where when you die in the game, you have to smash your car with a baseball bat. That wlil reinstill consquences and provide an element of fear.

A lot of valid reasons here your encounter/kill density is not historical. Because the game is well constructed and has semi-random elements, not everyone's experiences are the same, even playing un-modded game. I've seen as many posts of people wandering around complaining they saw no targets as those who claim they saw too many.

Another thing going on is you have the benfit of history. You know where to search for the enemy and historically, they largely did not. They had to search for them, and then when found, resources had to be brought in slowly from great distances to find nothing.

Thirdly, it's a game. The prime entertainment of the game is to find targets in thousands of square miles with no satellite coverage and no GPS and actually sink something. Using the benfit of hitory, you can raise your contact stats way above historical. Those who play the game knowing almost nothing about WWII (which is about 99.% of our current generation) complain here bitterly about the lack of contacts until they start downloading and using historical maps. They also learn to use the map contacts as clues.

You can also massage your stats to historical by patrolling the Marshalls the entire war. That should do the trick.

-Pv-

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Pv-

Another thing going on is you have the benfit of history. You know where to search for the enemy and historically, they largely did not. They had to search for them, and then when found, resources had to be brought in slowly from great distances to find nothing.
-Pv-

Well. that's an interesting point, I believe the early Naval doctrine (1942) was to use the subs as scouts, figuring out what the Japanese fleet were up to and sinking targets of oppourtunity. In very short order, it became clear what the Japanese objectives were (oil) and once they established bases in the south it isn't very difficult to figure out what the sea lanes are - they have to supply those bases, and you know where the ports are on both ends.

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Pv-

Thirdly, it's a game.
-Pv-

Yep, I get that. But it is also a historical sim, and I think many people expect a fairly realistic experience from a historical sim. I appreciate all the attention to detail the developers already put in the game. From a product marketing point, I understand why they would increase the ship density, but it would be nice if they had added a "realistic traffic density" option in the realism settings.

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Pv-

You can also massage your stats to historical by patrolling the Marshalls the entire war. That should do the trick.
-Pv-

I'll try that thanks!