Depends on the driver, some are good, some are right arseholes. I've had a good insight into the bus industry, my father is a bus driver, and you do get some right sods.

Yes, and in Berlin. And guess what - I am not too tolerant to that, too. If they nevertheless behave, okay, let's see how it works. But leading people around like dogs - well, next is some rubber fetishists in half-naked outfit parading on the street. - Gee, I forgot, we already have that: Christopher Street Day.

And you know what? I am intolerant on that one, too.

One cannot criticise the fall of values and social behavior - and tolerate practicing of it nevertheless.

and most decisive for me personally is this, what I already said at the beginning: I would feel irritated, a bit helpless maybe, offended, and even attacked in my sense of shame, when needing to see such people like in that article and sit beside them in a bus. And that is what social standards, amongst others, are there for: to protect against the direct, confronting violation of taboos and sense of shame in public. at home, they even can eat dogfood if they want, i do not care. but if I am forced to witness them doing that, the fun comes to an end.

Boy oh boy, what is wriong these days, that every BS and every freak and every misbehavior must be tolerated and dealt with as if nothing is wrong, and all is okay, and if you are not willing to do that, you are accused to be an intolerant, reactionary burgeois.

In germany, three or four weeks ago an old man was almost killed by a Greek and a Turkish juvenile while teling them not to smoke in the subway. after he left the train, they jumped onto him, kicked woith full power in his neck and face, and he suffered multiple skull fractions and got almost killed. Nevertheless, an editor of a major newspaper here "Die Zeit", wrote an essay that such violance gets provoked by german "Spießbürgerlichkeit", and that a buregois like that that old man would maybe get away healthy if they would not be so tunnel-minded and accept that rules and laws get violated (smoking in trains is forbidden here). the editor caused an avaöanche of aggressive angry responses to his follies, even hateful post, but he even kicked a second time, saying that it is a sign of intolerance in Germany if the criminal statistic (saying that around one half of the crimes of juveniles are committed by juveniles from foreigner's families, and the other half by german offsprings) is being discussed as interpreted as that foreign juveniles commit significantly more crimes than German juveniles. That is Pc in action - if foreigners really would not commit more crimes than Germans, in crime statistiscs they should have a drastcially lower score. but if their score is as high as that of German, although there are mutliple times as many Germans living here than foreiogners, than this means that the crime rate is multiple times as high amongst foreigners, than it is amongst Germans. solution in order not to be burgois: ignore it, and remain silent about it as if nothing is happening.

Sorry guys, not with me. I am totally pissed with this kind of unreasonably tolerance, becasue I see how it is raping the culture I live in, and makes mockery of everything that our cultural developement over past centuries has brought to shine. That is true with regard to those wannabe-killers in the subway. That is true for almost naked men bragging with their sexual orientation on public parade, and that is true for a couple walking around and provoking their social environment without any consideration like the two in this article.

Oh seriously, what kind of issue is this? By that logic me carrying my sturdy laptop bag could be dangerous for passengers on the bus! Let's ban bags, they're dangerous to people! Let's ban bread, too, people could choke on it.

Sure, these guys are pretty weird. But that's not up to the bus company to worry about. I don't think their particular dress code or philosophy of life really threatens anyone.

I would say it's PC on your part Skybird - terribly PC of you to feel offended by a subcultural tendency that's way left of field.

I can see where your coming from Sky, and in the case of those idiots in the subway tunnel yes, I agree with you, it's certainly stupid to blame the man for telling them not to smoke, and making it his fault that he got near beaten to death. However, I cannot draw the similarities between that case and this. Surely, if this was the case then we would be saying that the incident at Heathrow I think it was a few months back when a lady was banned from wearing a cross, was a valid thing because she was provoking her environment, likewise, the three little pigs story in the thread below this (or above it) could be accused of provoking its environment. I'm not saying your point of view is wrong, as each and every person is entitled to one, I'm just not able to agree with it in this instance. Social violence is one thing, but social expression is another in my opinion.

But a social community that does not agree on rules anymore, and knows no limits in what it tolerates and what not - breaks apart sooner or later. Becasue you define yourself not only by what you agree to be yourself - but also by saying clearly what you are not, and do not want to be maybe - and thus, rejecting it.and nthat is the problem of the modern time: that we consider it to be a virtue to tolerate EVERYTHING, just because it is there, and we consider a dull sentence spoken by a drunk man after having six beers to be a cultural statement, and precious personal opinion that equals argument and must be valued, a proof of individual originality that must be respected. But that goes beyond what our communities can bear. We are loosing our cultural identities, we even engage in actively refusing them, we splitter. that way we become more and more vulnerable to other stuff, cultures, people, ideas that before were off-limit to our dying culture - we become prey to the negatives that before were unacceptable. Of course i know that killing an old man in the subway does not equal the couple in the above article. and of course I know that juveniles livng a punk-style of life somtimes use it to express protest against what they see as the rules of the adults (more often they are just anarchic and lazy, let's face it, at least that'S what it was like with the berlin scene in Kreuzberg in the 80s). Nevertheless, both the subway incident and the couple in the bus are symptoms of one and the same process of cultural erosion, and destruction of our cultural identity.

What would you classify as cultural identity, out of interest, because the way the United Kingdom has been viewed internally and externally has changed over time. From the days of the Saxons, through to the British Empire and to today, culture in itself has always changed through history, in my opinion anyway, and things that were held in high regard yesterday are not necessarily held in the same regard today. I do see where you are coming from though Skybird, the punk era did seem to lead into the gradual dissolution of the close-knit society into the rather tribal chaotic society we see today, however, they alone were not solely responsible for this fall from grace, the import of tribal gangland warfare from the United States (which in turn was probably imported from the tribal warfare of Africa) as well as many others has placed us in the situation we are in, in which people are scared to walk the streets at night.
This nightly fear, however, is nothing new to London, at least, however it hasn't been as bad as this since the Victorian era, and you certainly couldn't blame Jack the Ripper on the Punks and Goths ;).

Our current cultural identity I see as the result from historical processes over the past centuries, from the ancient Greek and romans to whom we owe to varying degrees until today, over the kingdom and nation forming in the medieval, the developement of humanities (Geisteswisssenschaften) and philosophy since the rennaissance and the enlightenment, ending in the principal validity of the system or call it tradtion of "humanism", Lessing's conception of "Vernunft" (reason), the separation of religion and politics, and a legal code that more or less reflect all this in it state and condition after WWII.

BTW, I have not necessarily a problem with Goths, or punks, i think they are weired in the choice of cloathing and style, but all that must not interest me, and in my school days two punky guys were relatively close buddies of mine, for they had their heart in the right place, to translate a german proverb (das Herz auf dem rechten Fleck haben, it means to be okay by character and/or to show courage). I would like to rmeind thiough that there is a link from the Goth scnene to the public suicide scene that is booming on internet, so it seems to be a reasonable thing to have an eye on them - so have the social workers and authorities over here whpo are dealing with drug consummation of juveneiles and psychosects ("Drogen- und Sektenbeauftragte"). not every goth plans to commit suicide, but the playacted or real fascination for death and darkness, and suicide cults, cannot be ignored. It is no normal, ordinary social group like any other, and if my children would drift towards it, I would be very seriously concerned. the private behavior of the couple described in the article shows psychopathological striking features, and unnormal one-sided dependency.

All in all i wpould not care - just that thing to of a man leading around his girlfriend like a dog and accepting to provoke his social environment with that gets me up into arms, for such practices I consider to be a part of privatsphere, but not public life, and eventually a clinical indication is given. He was successful, of course - I feel provoked, and very much so. I couldn'T feel more provoked by a tart sitting half naked in a stimulating latex suite on a park bank and having her naked breasts hanging out of her rubber dress and saying it is a free country, I have to tolerate her - I would not. ;)

True, Gothicism (not quite sure if that is a word) comes in all shapes and sizes, and I would certainly not refute the link between extreme Goths and online suicides, there's some very dark stuff out there. It's the persons 'heart' to use a rather clichéd expression, that helps to determine their path. Like your two punk friends, I know people who like Goth stuff, however, the most of them aren't fully Goth so to speak, they just like the music and clothing and I think that applies to many Goths these days.
However, aside from the Health and Safety aspect (which can be solved with a breakable velcro collar, like the ties they give people who might work with violent people) I don't see how this would affront as much as, the lady in latex with her breasts hanging out, she is not crawling around on all fours, she's just walking with her boyfriend with a chain attached to her, and it's something she wants. If it was done against her will then I would be fully against it, but it's something she wants and I think, for the most part it's certainly not as offensive as some things I have seen.

You mention the progression of culture within Germany, coming from the Greeks and Romans down through a steadily expanding growth of liberalisation untill today, with the seperation of religion and politics and a legal code which reflects the progression of society. All this points towards a gradual expansion of liberal thinking, in the way I see it. Once it was the right for freedom of thought, now it is freedom of expression, however, like all freedoms there are those who take liberties with it, those who push the envelope to see how far they can get under the protection of 'Political Correctness', we see a lot of this in Britain today, people taking things out of all proportions. The latex mostly topless lady, in your example, would come into this category (although one could argue about the exposure of breasts in breast-feeding, but that's for another time and place) as she knows that exposure is (at this stage in society) still a socially wrong thing to do, however, in some respects this is where liberalisation has gone backwards, in times past perhaps such exposure would not be frowned upon, certainly if even half of the tales out of the Roman Empire are to be believed, then well, :-? However, one can argue fore and aft on the freedom of expression for years, and then find that society has changed once again, and the very thing we were trying to validate is now a social norm. Looking at Britain, since I'm not so well read on the social status of Germany over the years, but this incidence with the leads would probably have resulted in the young lady being locked up in a padded cell less than fifty-sixty years ago, particularly since it was taking place openly in a public place. However, the bar has been raised, and now it's not as much of a taboo as it was then. One only has to look at fashions to judge this, some will remember the stir the miniskirt caused forty years ago, although now it's positively a gown compared to some outfits on the streets.
Society, in my view, continues to progress with each decade, which way it is progressing is, of course, a matter of opinion and heavily influenced by the society which the viewer grew up in and the upbringing that person had, hence the popularity of shows such as "Life on Mars" and "Heartbeat" as people will always maintain that things were better in the past than they are today because they are more comfortable with the society they were brought up in rather than the way that society has progressed today. This does not necessarily mean that they are wrong, for right and wrong is in the eye of the beholder, and at the end of the day, I believe that the young man and his lady have a right to express their relationship such, as it is not as much as an affront to current society as perhaps, getting on the bus completely naked, or, getting on the bus and stabbing the bus driver, to use to extremes. Whether or not, this trend of society is mirroring the fall of Rome and the descent into the Dark Ages, or to use a more biblical reference, Sodom and Gomorrah, remains to be seen, however, in my opinion, in the grand scheme of things, this is but a minor enfringement upon society, particularly society as it is.
Just my opinion anyway, and I understand and respect what you are saying Sky. :up:

:damn: Here's you mentioning you have sore finger-tips and here's me creating long discussions! :damn:

Sorry mate, cool ya fingers and we can continue this whenever :)

As an ex-punk rocker/goth boy, I have no problem with those two's freedom of expression and find the bus company's stance deplorable. If she decides to wear a freakin' leash, how is this a danger to others on the bus !?! It's not like they're going to be draping it accross the lane to trip passengers !

In my past, I've had times where I looked wierder and did stranger things than they're doing and of course, I recieved the same kind of discrimination on occasion. (Once, me and my friends weren't allowed into a club because they thought my friend was a nazi skinhead Just because he was bald and was dressed in the typical punk torn up leather jacket and wearing combat boots. He was a "Straightedge".. not one of those nazi idiots and had NO nazi ANYTHING on him. He didn't drink alcohol, do any drugs, didn't get into fights, was not violent and deplored racism.)

It just goes to show, if you try to express yourself in any way other than a "mainstream" way, to a large majority of people, you will get automatically associated with those small handful of idiots who ruin it for those of us just expressing ourselves.:stare:

Oberon,

Well, we disagree on this, then. You say you see the examples given as being in line and being the result of past developements. I see them in explicit violation or better: abusing of these develeopements that led to the status quo to whom I consider this behavior being provoking.

I said it twioce above, and again now: when reading the story the first time, I immediately felt personally provoked, and when imagining to be sitting beside them in a poublic place, I would feel uncomfortable, irritated, and being confronted by what I consider to be unacceptable public behavior or display. That means nothing else than that my limits of tolerance and social shame - that everybody of us has to varying degrees - have been reached, and they were stepping over that proverbial red line. and I nwpuld react to that. Like i wpould react to a naked couple sitting in the hus, or already have reacted to people making noise in the movies, or that guy in the train who mistook the compartment with his personal sleeping area and letting his feet and hands fly around all over the banks. On the other hands I have seen goths and pounks who looked really querer, nevertheless behaved acceptable, sometimes even friendly and helpful. Clothing alone can be a problem (lcking clothing, or sexually provoking clothing), but in these cases named in this thread is not.

Can't help it, we disagree. ;)

I strongly oppose any idea of unlimited freedom of self-expression if being expressed in public. If compulsive masturbation is part of your way to express yourself in publöic, you'd be in trouble sooner than later, to give a drastic example in order to keep it short; so you better limit it to your own bedroom, maybe. As long as you live in a social community, there is no such thing like unlimuted freedom and unlimited tolerance. If you want unlimoited freedom, you need to live in a place were you are all allone and do not interact with anybody else and nopbody needs to take note of you or the meer fact that you do exist. than you have unlimited freedom. but in a society, the valid rule is this: your freedom ends where you start to limnit the freedom of others - and that works dynamical at both directions. So, where you provoke the sense of shame of the society you live in, do not be surprised if the society takes action against you. By kicking oyu out of a bus, for example.

Can't agree on everything ;) But I'll still buy you a pint if ever I meet you because you make a very valid and well put case. :)

PC nonsense yes, but this time from the bus company and you, since you are the one complaining about not wanting to be offended. The bus companys claim that they could pose a threat to fellow passengers in case of rapid deacceleration is complete horse****. Personally I wouldnt have a problem with public nudity, but I can understand why that is where the line is usually drawn. About what you say in one of the later posts in this threat that there is no unlimited froodom for self-expression in a society, I agree with you, but this falls well within acceptable limits. In a free society one should allways expect to see things that offend.

I don't see the issue here.
I dislike the backtracking done by the bus company.

I think I'd have to be having a terrible day to feel insulted by how a couple I've never met look.