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-   -   The comeback continent (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=128751)

01-11-08 01:41 PM

No, no guys I wasn't saying Europe was pointless
 
terminated

fatty 01-11-08 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wave Skipper
I was talking about its over all geological structure. It is just a part of Asia. Greenland has nothing but rock and ice, but geologically it is a large land mass surrounded by ocean. Back when I was a kid we were taught that Europe was a continent. Even as a kid I'd look at the map and wonder: "Is like Western Russia under water or something?" Europe was the leader in science during the time the science about geography was being developed. OF COURSE Europeans - being tops back then - didn't want to list their landmass as a peninsula. Australia is a real continent - and what does it have? Yes, Australia is one of the finest sceintific proofs that when large asteroids slowly hit earth they always land bad side up. And yes it does not have a huge, huge economy (none of this is any reflection on their people - some of the finest in the world - and I mean that!), but Australia is a continent because its huge and its srrounded by water. South America, North America and Africa are huge and MAINLY surrounded by water. Eruope is not much bigger than India and no one called India a continent. (Greenland is not that large and so no it is not stricly speaking in the same legue.)

SO my point was that European scientists had the bighead back in the 1700s or when ever it was that they made mapes of the world and they made a special exception for themselves - that should today be corrected. Hence my use of the Asian threat. As it is possible in the future (distant future) Asian hordes coming over land would remind Europe that they are part of Asia's land mass.

You don't need your very own continent to be powerful and rich, look at Britain and Japan.

Water is not the only thing that seperates land. Mountains, gorges, deserts, etc. all do too. In Europe's case, its eastern border is not abitrarily defined, but instead runs along the range of the Urals.

Anyway, thanks for posting the article Skybird, glad to hear Europe is doing better than some would like to think. I always thought slow, moderate growth is better than explosive, unstable, and unsustainable growth. Kudos, Europe!

mrbeast 01-11-08 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1
By the way, all your welfare prgrams probably also further drag down your growth rate. Forgot to mention that.

-S

Yep it may well do but then again I'm not bankrupt if I find out I've got cancer, or if i have an accident I can go to any casualty department and not get turned away because the hospital is not listed on my health insurance card.

NHS :cool:

Tchocky 01-11-08 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1
I find that funny. Your idea of an economy doing OK is an economy that is not going backwards, but one with on 1 or 2 percentage point gains. Sad. America adds another Saidi Arabia in economy every month, and what exactly are the Europeans doing? Adding an Ethiopia? We are over double the gains of what Europe has.

The US economy is certainly growing faster than that of Europe, but that's not the only variable to consider. Income inequality in the US has never been higher, almost twice that of some European countries. That's where welfare state systems can be seen to have an effect.

Quote:

This is what Americans don't want - a pathetic state of growth.
And good luck to them. However, I wouldn't want a striking growth rate alongside inflation, inequality and unacceptable debt. Balance is key.
Regarding "pathetic growth", 2% is respectable, even more so if it is sustainable. European economies tend to be slower-moving than the US, resulting in flatter booms and soft-landing recessions (exception in point, Ireland at the turn of the century). This is due to rather large differences in both the ideology and infrastructure of the two areas, with benefits and disadvantages on each side. You nailed it youself, the two want different things, as is only natural.
The problem arises when the idea of EU vs US gets into somebody's head, resulting in rather mismatched comparisons that don't get off the ground, such as Saudi Arabia/Ethiopia.
Quote:

I guess this is another Skybird feel-good thread is all.
Don't be so harsh.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrbeast
Quote:

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1
By the way, all your welfare prgrams probably also further drag down your growth rate. Forgot to mention that.

-S

Yep it may well do but then again I'm not bankrupt if I find out I've got cancer, or if i have an accident I can go to any casualty department and not get turned away because the hospital is not listed on my health insurance card.

NHS :cool:

My brother lives in Lancaster, and I chipped a tooth on a night out while visiting him. Next day we went to look for an NHS dentist, I had it repaired the day after that.
NHS :cool: indeed

STEED 01-11-08 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kapitan_Phillips
Well Europe has a country called Great Britain.

Which is a anagram for Standard Britain. :damn:

SUBMAN1 01-11-08 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrbeast
Yep it may well do but then again I'm not bankrupt if I find out I've got cancer, or if i have an accident I can go to any casualty department and not get turned away because the hospital is not listed on my health insurance card.

NHS :cool:

Uhh... Is that how they sell you on your healthcare system over there? Just a little tidbit - they are wrong, or you are wrong, one of the two.

A hospital is not able to turn away an emergency patient, regardless if they don't even have insurance over here. (talk to the illegals, they know this well - they never pay for healthcare either)

There are restrictions on some insurance plans that limit where you can go by how much they will compensate. On a plan like this, instead of coverage at 100% persay, they would only cover 80% if you insisted to go to this specific hospital for a said particular treatment. So, you have a choice - pay through the nose at picking up 20% of the bill, or do what your insurance company asks.

Hopefully this gives you a better idea how things work across the pond.

-S

SUBMAN1 01-11-08 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tchocky
The US economy is certainly growing faster than that of Europe, but that's not the only variable to consider. Income inequality in the US has never been higher, almost twice that of some European countries. That's where welfare state systems can be seen to have an effect.

Do you have any idea why the income inequalities are growing faster over here than Europe? Try illegal aliens. ALl 12+ million of them. That is a true statement if you include them. Remove them from the equation and we probably have equal or lesser rates than Europe.

Quote:

And good luck to them. However, I wouldn't want a striking growth rate alongside inflation, inequality and unacceptable debt. Balance is key.
Regarding "pathetic growth", 2% is respectable, even more so if it is sustainable. European economies tend to be slower-moving than the US, resulting in flatter booms and soft-landing recessions (exception in point, Ireland at the turn of the century). This is due to rather large differences in both the ideology and infrastructure of the two areas, with benefits and disadvantages on each side. You nailed it youself, the two want different things, as is only natural.
The problem arises when the idea of EU vs US gets into somebody's head, resulting in rather mismatched comparisons that don't get off the ground, such as Saudi Arabia/Ethiopia.
I have yet to see you not hit as hard as we do. Our recessions include an increase in GDP funny enough too, so I think the idea of a recession in Americas eyes is much different than Europe - we all get ticked off when our investments aren't growing as much - 1% to us is a recession, where you're idea of one is going backwards. 2% in my book is nothing to write home about. 4% is, and 5% is great. We normally have those numbers after you look at the yearly totals.

Quote:

Yep it may well do but then again I'm not bankrupt if I find out I've got cancer, or if i have an accident I can go to any casualty department and not get turned away because the hospital is not listed on my health insurance card.

NHS :cool:
See my above post. You guys have no clue how our health system works.
Quote:

My brother lives in Lancaster, and I chipped a tooth on a night out while visiting him. Next day we went to look for an NHS dentist, I had it repaired the day after that.
NHS :cool: indeed
Same here, but I also have a dentist with the latest modern equipment - the best money can buy.

Happy Times 01-11-08 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1
I find that funny. Your idea of an economy doing OK is an economy that is not going backwards, but one with on 1 or 2 percentage point gains. Sad. America adds another Saidi Arabia in economy every month, and what exactly are the Europeans doing? Adding an Ethiopia? We are over double the gains of what Europe has.

This is what Americans don't want - a pathetic state of growth.

I guess this is another Skybird feel-good thread is all.

-S

The current economic outlook for both the near-term and long-term future look positive, based on assessments made by The World Economic Forum that has declared Finland to be the most competitive country in the world for three consecutive years (2003–2005) and four times since 2002.

In recent years there has been national focus on innovation and research and development, with special emphasis on information technology. Finland was ranked 3rd most innovative economy in 2006 by the European Innovation Scoreboard (EIS), with scores well above that of the EU25 average and the United States.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Finland

STEED 01-11-08 04:17 PM

Quote:

bear this in mind: Europe's economy is actually doing O.K. these days, despite a level of taxing and spending beyond the wildest ambitions of American progressives.
Well there is this...........

Quote:

Europe struggles to avoid effects of a U.S. downturn

This old question is being asked with new urgency across the Continent, after a startling divergence this week in how the European Central Bank and the Federal Reserve are reading the economic tea leaves.
The answer, according to a growing number of economists, is that Europe is not as insulated from America's woes as many Europeans would like to believe. They question why, at such a fragile moment, the European Central Bank is warning that it might raise interest rates.


http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/01/11/business/euecon.php


SUBMAN1 01-11-08 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Happy Times
The current economic outlook for both the near-term and long-term future look positive, based on assessments made by The World Economic Forum that has declared Finland to be the most competitive country in the world for three consecutive years (2003–2005) and four times since 2002.

In recent years there has been national focus on innovation and research and development, with special emphasis on information technology. Finland was ranked 3rd most innovative economy in 2006 by the European Innovation Scoreboard (EIS), with scores well above that of the EU25 average and the United States.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Finland

This is mostly true. Finland was ranked high. I expect them to have a good upswing too. Hopefully you guys can carry some of the EU weight on your backs.

-S

mrbeast 01-11-08 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1
Quote:

Originally Posted by mrbeast
Yep it may well do but then again I'm not bankrupt if I find out I've got cancer, or if i have an accident I can go to any casualty department and not get turned away because the hospital is not listed on my health insurance card.

NHS :cool:

Uhh... Is that how they sell you on your healthcare system over there? Just a little tidbit - they are wrong, or you are wrong, one of the two.

A hospital is not able to turn away an emergency patient, regardless if they don't even have insurance over here. (talk to the illegals, they know this well - they never pay for healthcare either)

There are restrictions on some insurance plans that limit where you can go by how much they will compensate. On a plan like this, instead of coverage at 100% persay, they would only cover 80% if you insisted to go to this specific hospital for a said particular treatment. So, you have a choice - pay through the nose at picking up 20% of the bill, or do what your insurance company asks.

Hopefully this gives you a better idea how things work across the pond.

-S

46 million Americans without health insurance.

60 million British citizens (ie the whole population) with health care.

What happens to Americans who have no health insurance or are under insured?

Answer: they either pay up or they die. But I guess thats what you would call freedom of choice. You could argue that people in Cuba enjoy better health care than those 46 million Americans.

The whole point of the NHS is that people don't 'sell me health care' its dispensed according to my need and not my ability to pay.

Tchocky 01-11-08 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1
Do you have any idea why the income inequalities are growing faster over here than Europe? Try illegal aliens. ALl 12+ million of them. That is a true statement if you include them. Remove them from the equation and we probably have equal or lesser rates than Europe.

Immigration (both legal and illegal) is a factor in rising inequality, as is falling union membership. But I very much doubt that illegal immigration is responsible for all of the disparity, seeing as the US model has a built-in tendency towards higher inequality than the EU. When comparing US and EU, keep in mind that the overall economic ideology of the US includes a higher level of ineqaulity as an immediate result, whereas the model adopted by many EU countries seeks to rectify inequality. Different strokes, etc. Just like Europe has a higher natural rate of unemployment, the US has higher inequality.

Quote:

I have yet to see you not hit as hard as we do. Our recessions include an increase in GDP funny enough too, so I think the idea of a recession in Americas eyes is much different than Europe - we all get ticked off when our investments aren't growing as much - 1% to us is a recession, where you're idea of one is going backwards
There are not different ideas of a recession in different countries, it is a term with a definition. A positive-growth recession? A recession is negative growth for two consecutive quarters. 1% is not a recession, it is slow growth.
If people start calling 1% growth a recession, that doesn't change the meaning, it just means they are wrong.
Quote:

2% in my book is nothing to write home about. 4% is, and 5% is great. We normally have those numbers after you look at the yearly totals.
Again, there are other factors than GDP growth to consider. But you're right in general.
Given the differences between the two blocss, on the upswing of the business cycle the US will usually be growing faster than the EU. That's where both economies are growing to plan, and again doesn't lend itself to comparison.

mrbeast 01-11-08 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wave Skipper
I know Europe liked to imagine itself as a continent back when it ruled over the dusky men with its 'white man's burden'. Yet, Greenland is a better continent than Europe. One day Europe will get a lesson in this when it realizes that there is nothing standing between it and China's 1.3 Billion and Indians billion+'s, except those poorly utilized farm fields in Russia.

I wonder what your post have to do with our social security and the rest of Skybirds post? :-?

I was thinking the same thing.

SUBMAN1 01-11-08 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrbeast
46 million Americans without health insurance.

60 million British citizens (ie the whole population) with health care.

What happens to Americans who have no health insurance or are under insured?

Answer: they either pay up or they die. But I guess thats what you would call freedom of choice. You could argue that people in Cuba enjoy better health care than those 46 million Americans.

The whole point of the NHS is that people don't 'sell me health care' its dispensed according to my need and not my ability to pay.

Read my post at the top of this page and you will have your answer. Having no insurance in this country means nothing. THat simply means the rest of your insured people pay the bill for them - with higher rates. That is what it means.

I do find it humorous that you think we die over here given no health insurance! I could only wish since that would mean all the illegal aliens would go home.

-S

SUBMAN1 01-11-08 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tchocky
...

Just to answer some basic things - what I refer to on recession is that it starts out that way you describe it, but when you analyze the numbers at the end of the year, the recession didn't happen the way the news reports it. Maybe it went down for 2 quarters, but all that ground is made up and then some the following two. THis is what I am referring to and it happens constantly for recent memory. THe news will obviously say something different to sell stories however.

Also - the illegals with an immigration right now of 4 million per year can been shown to chock up the majority of the inequality in America. This doesn't account for all of it, but most of it. 4 million of them a year is just nuts and someone needs to kick them back out.

-S


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