I'm not sure I know what you mean... Are you referring to when the sub is using active to determine range or an escort using active location before it has located you? (I'd like to accomplish both of these btw).

Changing the reload times to get longer "hold downs" was on my list of things to do anyway. Given that the interaction between sensors and AI behavior is so very critical, this is one of those cases where modding 1 thing (DCs and launchers) seriously interacts with another (underwater sensors). We'd be doing each other a favor :D

tater

First i'll have to say that my thinking here, is admitidly two dimensional.

If you want a longer evasion period, the answer is to quite simply increase the "power" of the detection gear used by the AI. However, the "bark" if you will. The "bite" is the depth charge. In most cases, the "bark" makes the "bite" worse because they AI becomes more accurate. So the trick in my mind, is to make them less accurate, to make it safe for them to be super sniffers.

That said, after thinking about it for a minute, (as i type this in fact), you could probably just extend the maximum range on the active sonar considerably, without altering its down angle. That would (in theory) make them both more active (no pun intended), and not super accurate.

Part of my adjustments to the AI were as follows:
- Type93_1A -> Max elevation from 108 to 106
- Type93_3A -> Max Elevation from 112 to 112
- Type93_5A -> Max Elevation from 120 to 118

Thats the "down angle", gives them a bit more depth probing, and makes them a bit more accurate. The more max elevation they have, they longer they can keep contact. By default, i think the max elevation is 100 in the stock file. The values i list above, are just me fine tuning it.

As an aside, i think it bears mentioning that active sonar, is very mechanical in its use. From all ive ever been able to discern from the AI in SH3, and Sh4, the AI will only start pinging when three conditions are met, as part of its hardcoded AI routine.

1.) You are within the sonars geometric cone.
2.) you are presenting a favorable aspect to the AI, your surface factor being an X number or greater.
3.) You are doing both 1 and 2, for the time period specified by the sonar Detection time parameter as specified in the sim.cfg

Another thought that just hit me is if you really wanted to soup up the AI detection, just try lowering its detection time to a ridciously small number, but then you want the player to have a chance to evade as well, so this might not be possible unless you want to latch that AI unit on the player like a pack of dogs on a 3 legged cat.

What I mean is my sub sends a ping for range and the DD can hear it. Currently, it is just to easy pinging away without recourse.

I think its silly you can use your active sonar without recourse as well, but thats something that lays in the land of hardcoded. Nothing anyone here can do about that.

First off--I want you to know that this project has actually been most influenced by your Trigger Maru mod. Your excellent work has set me --again--on the dark path of modding ;).

The reason I am decreasing the angle of the sonar (more shallow) is to create a blind zone. I've found that with the deep delving sonar, small escorts like SC's and MS's could just whip around an immediately reaquire me. Adding the range created a situation where (in ideal sonar conditions) I was always being located and attacked again immediately. Too fast for my taste. By shallowing it up, I now have a blind zone ~500 meters out from the escort. Outside of being more historical--it also creates a slower pursuit by the escort. The deeper delving sonar was something the allies did (Q apparatus) but the Japanese never figured out. If they had, we would have lost a lot more submarines during the war.

What you've said is all correct--no argument--you know your poop :lol:! What I'm pursuing though creates a scenario where attacking a convoy is merely an introduction to a slow tango to follow. And it's working pretty well so far but as I've stated, needs a little more tuning.

Your three points for getting the escort to go "Active" are also my experience. I plan to look into that later to see if I can change it by making a suedo radar/sonar. After all--their radar is always on.

THanks for your input! Your thoughts on the subject are Very Welcome!

Something similar was done a while ago for SH3. This lead to battles in which the sub could survive hours of terrifying depth-charging. It's definitely a good idea for SH4.

Don't forget the other half: the kill radius should not be more than 7.5 meters (25 feet) for any standard depth charge.

Agreed. It's much more fun to be pummelled into submission than to get that straight out kill shot :lol:! Ducimus has done good work with his DC's--they have a much larger Xmeters range where they explode. It compensates well for the AI always knowing how deep you are.

Ah yes. Ask any submariner. Nothing beats a good pounding by depth charges ;)...

The kill radius, and the damage radius in general are related, but not the same.

There is a range of damage the DC can do. Say MinEF 100 to MaxEF 200 damage points.

There are 2 ranges, Min, and Max. At Min, the DC does 100% of the random value generated (between 100 and 200 in this example). In addition, at MinRadius it does general hitpoint damage to the sub. Between the min and max radii, the damage drops from 100% to 0%. The threshold for sub damage has to do with armor level factor (zones) and armor. For a typical sub this means 100 damage points. If the example above did 200 damage, then at MinRadius it would do 200, well above the 100 needed and would seriously mess with the sub. Halfway between Min and Max Radius it would drop below 100, and the sub doesn't take damage. Somewhere in that range (probably armor related for the guns themselves) you see the deck gun taking damage.

I've seriously upped the damage values of the DCs, and I have yet to get reliable 1 DC kills at any range, even in contact. The reason the stock DCs are pretty nasty is that they have a huge max radius. The plus to this is that they damage multiple compartments on the sub, even though each takes lighter damage than you might expect even with a contact detonation. I think the basic problem is that subs are grossly too strong.

tater

There is a big problem with the depth error setting being high, though. It's the reason the bloody escorts blow their sterns off.

In reality, they should only blow at 30, 60, or later 90m for Type 95 DCs, and at ~7.5m intervals for Type 2 DCs. The AI overrides the detonation depth setting, so that doesn't work. (I had a way worked out to make them work right had the damn setting worked).

Depth error cuts both ways though, if you are diving hard when they drop, some will still detonate at your lower depth.

It's tough to balance, that's for sure.

tater

Very tough to balance.

Tight depth accuracy?
Pin point dropping AI.

Loose depth accuracy?
AI blowing his own stern off.

Large damage radius?
DC's become very deadly.

Small damage radius?
Not enough component damage

Smaller still damage radius?
DC's become nothing more then noisemakers.

I went larger than TM for the larger type 2 DCs than TM (MaxRadius). I used 25m as I recall.

The Max radius can actually be somewhat large because below 100 damage, nothing happens. If max is only 200, and the max radius is set to 10m, min to 5m, the DC will only do ANY damage at 7.5m, farther than that, it does nothing at all. I think they should do SOME damage out to between 10 and 15m, so if the min is ~5, the max should be ~20-25m.

Upping the EF values helps as well.

Getting a single DC to kill you is damn near impossible, even if it blows up in contact or actually inside the sub (they have no collision node, so they pass through the sub).

Adding a collision node so that DCs will bounce off your hull is on my list of things to do... imagine the fear hearing THUNK! Worse, imagine it falls into the bridge and gets stuck there, lol.

tater

:hmm:

I need to rethink my AI schema maybe. Im just afraid of opening up the max radius because im making the AI a bit more touchy. If i up one, i have to dumb down the other to offset it to so speak.

I know someone who experienced this tater :o. He tells a good story.

This conversation you guys are having about DC's tells it all. Frankly--I like the variable depth that Ducimus uses except that it causes them to premature when they hit the water once in a while--would armoring the DC Racks help that? I don't like that escorts know your depth so well. They never guess. DC damage rating is always a touchy subject and one that is very subjective. We know that in reality--to sink a sub a dc had to go off within 25 feet of the hull. Maybe a work around would be this--create 3 levels of dc mods--wimpy/moderate and nasty. If they are stand-alone mods, people can easily make up their own mind. And if anyone would complain about that, it would be easy to ignore ;)!

Well--I'm about ready for another test. I got sunk in my last one (and that is a rare thing).

Cheers!

They key in all of this, is making the AI responsive, sans pin point DC's.
The main variables to accomplish this is a looser accuracy with smaller damage radius.

What if you if you made the sink rate a little slower? The forward momentum of the player sub (at extreme depth) would (in theory) offset a tighter accuracy rating.