SUBSIM Radio Room Forums - Aircraft Attacks on Patrols are unreal

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- - Aircraft Attacks on Patrols are unreal (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=124020)

Alot of the times us subs patroled submerged during the day to keep from being detected, the japanese would re-route shipping in areas where a patrol plane spotted a submarine.:ping:

BTW Silent Running is a great read!

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Originally Posted by Powerthighs

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If Not, I will plot their closest point of travel to judge if I'll be seen.

How the heck do you plot their direction of travel? The SD doesn't give you bearing?

If you have map contacts turned on not only do you get their bearing but also their course and speed. It is sort of a 'cheat' of course but there it is.

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Originally Posted by rrmelend

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Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

The most sucessful captains operated surfaced at all times unless actively avoiding a perceived enemy detection. This assumes using radar, of course. The unsuccessful ones remained submerged during the day when they could find targets and surfaced at night when targets could not be seen. They then returned to port with 24 torpedoes reporting there were no targets available. At the same time Barb and other more daring boats were having a field day.

I'd like to see your sources for this info. You are right abou the Barb but most of the skippers running on the top for extended periods of daylight hours came during the last year of the war when radar had advanced enough and the threat of detection was less than before.

I thought the same as you rrmelend until I read the patrol logs of the USS Gunnel. In 1944 they found out that around the Japanes mainland there were many radar stations and a lot of Japanese ships had radar on board as well. I doubt that the Japanes radar was as effective as the US radars but Japanese radar was jamming the radar of the Gunnel. Although Japanese radar might not have picked up the Gunnel it certainly neutralized Gunnels capability to pick up Japanese shipping.
For example:

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2240 (H): S.J.Radar contact, position Lat. 01° - 32.5' N., Long. 120° - 46' E. bearing 243° (T), distance 21,500 yards. The next morning periscope observation disclosed these to be four medium sized tankers escorted by four destroyers. Radar tracking gave target base course of 090° (T), speed 12 knots. They zigged from 060° (T) to 120° (T) about six minutes on each leg. First I tried to close these targets on the port bow, then on the flank, and finally on the port quarter. Each attempt at closing resulted in an escort placing itself between the submarine and the major targets, thus frustrating these endeavors to gain an attack position. There was definite radar interference from the escorts and had been since initial contact. Therefore in tracking, the transmitter was energized at irregular intervals to obtain data for the plotting party.

Taken from this site: http://jmlavelle.com/gunnel/patrol4.htm

I'm not arguing with what most of what you are saying, and actually most of you are proving my point. Late in the war ('44-'45) many of the younger captains did run on the top a lot. Most of the patrol logs and sources you are quoting come from Feb. '44 or later.

As far as the game goes (that was the original purpose of the post) I don't see a huge issue with the air attacks. I don't really remember how often I was attacked by air before I installed TM. I know that on my last mission I had a photo recon of Yokohama and I was able to sail on the surface all the way to the entrance of the harbor. I know in real life that would have never happened and my exec would have shot me himself if I would have even tried that.

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Originally Posted by rrmelend

most of you are proving my point

Yes and no.

Yes, there were planes flying patrol ... especially close to Japanese ports. You should've been tracked, attacked and probably sunk had you stayed on the surface during daylight hours. The Jack's first patrol took her captain and crew to the mouth of Tokyo Bay and at no time could they surface during daylight hours without coming under air attack.

But, no, not every skipper remained at periscope depth ... especially if far enough away from immediate danger. Mush Morton was one of the first U.S. skippers who, early on, remained on the surface until forced down by a definite threat ... and, even then, sometimes escaped only by the skin of his teeth.

Until, of course, he didn't (escape).

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Originally Posted by rrmelend

You're completely right when you say that late in the war radar made it much safer for subs and I just posted this excerpt because I was surprised that the Japanese were able to jamm US radars.
And you're right as well with the air attacks game wise. SInce the devs fixed the SD radar I was only attacked once by a Betty (just because I wanted to get ahead of a TF and didn't think the Betty had spotted me:dead:).
Another fact that surprised me when reading Gunnel's logs was that often planes were detected by the watch and not by radar.

I made it harder to get near ports for the picture taking missions

What I did was add AI Visual and AI Radar to the Air Bases and Port's in my game so now something else pay's attention to what is going on rather than just the plane's and ship's.

I also added it to all the Carrier's in the game to make it harder to aproach them and as soon as I am detected then they launch the plane's like crazy bombing the area as long as it is day time.

Try doing this in your game to make it harder and more interesting.