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-   -   'Nobody can strike the Kabba in Mecca' (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=120406)

joea 08-15-07 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samniTe
If they targeted Mecca and other Islamic holy sites, that would be the final injustice to Islam and the arabs. And I sincerely would wish a hundred more 9/11's would happen.

But the west wouldnt do that.

I think

I don't think they would, I hope not, and I think the consequences would be as you wrote...except I don't wish for that.

Oh IBTL

Happy Times 08-15-07 10:46 AM

Quote:

If they targeted Mecca and other Islamic holy sites, that would be the final injustice to Islam and the arabs.
http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/9469/crybabyua7.jpg




But do tell what are the prior injusticies?


Quote:

And I sincerely would wish a hundred more 9/11's would happen.
Wondering how you feel about the first one?


Quote:

But the west wouldnt do that.
But the east would do that.



Quote:

I think
I know

STEED 08-15-07 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chock
Frankly the laws on this sort of thing in the UK are ridiculous. I gave up hope when I saw those protesters in London carrying banners with 'behead those who offend Islam' etc, and not even being cautioned, let alone arrested. Kind of makes that guy's 'Don't Piss Me Off' T-shirt seem a bit tame in comparison.

My uncle worked a lot in the Middle East and African country's and he said to me this country will give Islam the upper hand some 15 odd years ago and at the time I dismissed it. Now 15 odd years latter there is clear evidence this is happening, why are we bending over back wards when a group of british follows of Islam want to destroy my way of life?

As Skybird pointed out early in one of his posts we have a law where we can not speak out against these religious nutters, it's crazy.

Why is it the followers of Islam who know of any warp minded person in there ranks report them to the police? Why don't they all stand up in a big rally and say we will hand over these extreme people and denounce them.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Chock
Beats me why the guy even wanted to come here to be honest. Living in the UK is crap.

:D Chock


Too true Chock, far too many people are asleep. Wake up the clock is ticking.

The Avon Lady 08-15-07 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by STEED
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chock
Beats me why the guy even wanted to come here to be honest. Living in the UK is crap.

Too true Chock, far too many people are asleep. Wake up the clock is ticking.

Buh-bye.

tycho102 08-15-07 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joea
I don't think they would, I hope not, and I think the consequences would be as you wrote...except I don't wish for that.

It's kind of interesting. At some point, the all the gangs would start the normal power struggle. It would start when one rival imam told his followers to pray in one direction, and another iman (or ayatollah) was telling them something else. Mecca, Medina, Karbala, Najif. Losing those four would, eventually, significantly fracture islam as it was fractured in ~632 AD. All of the rituals would be displaced and vying imams and ayatollahs would use the opportunity to grasp influence.

At some point, after enough kuffar had been killed, the gangs would begin killing amongst each other in a struggle for dominance. The only question, for me, is when that would occur.

STEED 08-15-07 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady
Quote:

Originally Posted by STEED
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chock
Beats me why the guy even wanted to come here to be honest. Living in the UK is crap.

Too true Chock, far too many people are asleep. Wake up the clock is ticking.

Buh-bye.

Last poll put 69% of the population want to leave. :huh:

samniTe 08-15-07 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Happy Times
Quote:

If they targeted Mecca and other Islamic holy sites, that would be the final injustice to Islam and the arabs.
http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/9469/crybabyua7.jpg




But do tell what are the prior injusticies?


Quote:

And I sincerely would wish a hundred more 9/11's would happen.
Wondering how you feel about the first one?


Quote:

But the west wouldnt do that.
But the east would do that.



Quote:

I think
I know

1: are you serious?
2: saw it coming
3: Nope
4: No, you don't

Tchocky 08-15-07 06:03 PM

Yay, let's bomb Mecca. That should sort this whole thing out.

Happy Times 08-15-07 07:10 PM

Quote:

1: are you serious?
Yes i am, enlighten please?

Quote:

2: saw it coming
So was it deserved?

Quote:

3: Nope
They have targeted everything in the west.

Quote:

4: No, you don't
Not going take your word for it.

Skybird 08-15-07 07:33 PM

Just imagine for a monent the Kaaba, Mekka and Medina get completely destroyed. Some people automatically fear that this would enrage sentiments around the globe amongst Muslims. I could imagine another reaction as well: that of total psychological paralysis, a time-out of encrusted superstitious belief: "The stone is gone, the cities are gone, and Allah did nothing to prevent or revenge it". this could lead many minds to ask the simple question: "How could this be?" And this could be a chance to brake into the self-powering cycle of self-feedback that always, always turns and thinks in cycles and never leads anywhere than just back to conclusions that the Quran is always right. It would be the chance of their lives for them to learn how to ask the question IF the Quran necessarily must right, and to start to examine history and origin of islam and muhammad'S real biography by using modern examination standards of reason and academical analysis. there is a reason why the West technically and scientifically and philosophically is so superior in developement compared to Muhammedan nations, who do not climb to these levels by their own effort, but by just buying and importing our knowledge without asking for the ways and methods by which we gained it. After all, everything in Islam always just leads back to Muhammad, and what Muhammad has said that Allah is, and what Muhammad has said that Allah expects of man, and what Muhammad said what should be done, and what Muhammad said about this situation in life, and that constellation in life, and another special event in life. all there is is the unchecked statements of just one single man whose life was dominated by fighting, robbery, bloodshed, intimidation, and war. So, after 1400 years it may need some substantial shock indeed to shake the long-held habit to believe that this single man, of highly questionable reputation and with blood-dripping biography, could ever have been selected by any deity to be it's messenger - if this deity really wanted to lecture about peace, tolerance, and reason (in the Western understanding of these terms which is totally different than Islam's understanding of these terms). And if this deity does not wish for peace, tolerance and reason, man better sent it to hell where it belongs.

And if you fear the hysteria of the masses in some countries - why is it that you do not fear a nuclear attack by an Islamic faction against a Western target first? Could it become any worse than this? Is the anger of Muslims so much more terrifying to you that you use it as the argument to prevent - forgive the archaic word - retaliation? What would you try to negotiate with somebody who wills to massurder your people and shatter your cities by use of nuclear weapons? Retaliation as a display of determination and strength and an effort to finally delete the problem by starting to kill it at it's roots - and mind you that strength always has been the only thing throughout history that ever was respected by Islam in that way that it was bringing it's advance to temporary halts? No dialogue and no mutual understanding ever acchieved that, it always was - superior force that was stronger than the forces of Islam. You can be as reasonbale yourself as you wish, if the other insists on archaic strnegth being the standard to decide difefrendces in opinions, you are lost. reason needs reason to communicate. Reason cannot communicate with or overcome violance. But violance can kill reason very well.

9/11 shook america to it's bones, because it was a first, Americans considerd themselves safe and and secure in america, and unattackable by foreign powers. Destroying the Kaaba would shake Muhammedans to their bones, too. and I doubt that it would be able and capable and psychologically equipped to produce an active reaction like the american military response (how ever misleading the longterm strategy of the US has been, if there has been any, that is).

So if an islamic faction is launching a nuclear attack and is not prevented from this by muslims and is supported by many muslims around the globe in fact, and funded by organizations and nations, then this is the point for me at the latest where I stop any further talking, or moral hesitation, and where i would give up all self-limitations and scruples immediately and would unleash all dogs of war and open fire with all weapons in an effort to wipe out this enemy doing this to me and prevent once and for all that he could ever acchieve the ability to do it again. To talk to somebody who nukes my people is absolutely undiscussable for me. Because then it would be not the time of words, but the time of swords. I have nothing to say to someone who masskills my people with nukes, that simple it is. It is either them, or us - that simple.

In other words: nuclear terror is where all subtlety is finally ending - at the latest. And the answer to it cannot be just to control the menace, but must be to try hard to annihilate all and every factors that led to it, which of course includes the ideology of Islam itself that motivates people to commit violance and conquest. It compares to the denazification of germany - here, no compromises were accepted, too, after all the horror the Nazi's ideology had been responsible for. If that is an unfriendly perspective for muslims, then I strongly suggest they try much harder to stop those who do terror in Islam's name, and I demand them to push much harder to educate Islamic people about how dangerous and inhumane islam'S message to mankind really is, and give up their following to this troublemaking set of queer ideas and superstitions, and stand up against it. It is either this, or that, there is really no in-between this time. Else it is: fly with the crows, get shot with the crows - I'm not sorry then. Everyone is responsible for the decisions he makes. who decides to follow islam is resonsible for it, like I would be repsonsible for supporting nuclear counterstrikes against an ideology and it's centres that motivates for global war and conquest and thus leads towards nuclear attack as well, if only you think it to a logical end.

islam will never be satisfied to just co-exist peacefully with others - this is in it's genes, that there is somethign that is not itself already is offending and needs to be overcome, no matter in what way and by what tools and means. There can be no peace as long as not all is Islam. This mission is true Islam, and not the nicetalking of it that has become a modern habit in the west. See where it has led us to: a state of cultural desintegration and self-denial. More and more of our fellow citizens can no longer say and do not even want to know anymore who they are and where they have come from.

The ship has already hit the iceberg, but nobody cares. Nobody tries to repair the damage, nobody even tries to save his life. Instead, everybody is denying as much as he can that there has been a collision, that there is a leak, that the ship is taking water, and that it will sink if nothing gets done. Lazy they sit in the bar, having drinks, giving toasts, and think it will be like that, forever, and if the floor seems to fall into growing angles, then this is not due to the water filling the ship, but because of becoming drunk from having had too much fun, too many drinks, too much laughter. So, nothing gets done. Life can be so easy, the music plays on, the party is wonderful, isn't it. Nice to meet you, how's your wife and kids?

Go figure how the story ends. Different to it, the Titanic actually had survivors.

The Avon Lady 08-15-07 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird
I could imagine another reaction as well: that of total psychological paralysis, a time-out of encrusted superstitious belief: "The stone is gone.......

This could easily be done by dropping tons of electric kettle cleaner and water on the Kabba. :hmm: Maybe the scene in the Wizzard of Oz of the Wicked Witch of the West melting was prophetic. :hmm:

Letum 08-16-07 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird
Just imagine for a monent the Kaaba, Mekka and Medina get completely destroyed. Some people automatically fear that this would enrage sentiments around the globe amongst Muslims. I could imagine another reaction as well: that of total psychological paralysis, a time-out of encrusted superstitious belief: "The stone is gone, the cities are gone, and Allah did nothing to prevent or revenge it". this could lead many minds to ask the simple question: "How could this be?" And this could be a chance to brake into the self-powering cycle of self-feedback that always, always turns and thinks in cycles and never leads anywhere than just back to conclusions that the Quran is always right.

That's a very, very big underestimate of the virility of religion. Time and time again religions have sprung back with vigor after disasters. See: Jews and Temples.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird
There is a reason why the West technically and scientifically and philosophically is so superior in development compared to Muhammedan nations, who do not climb to these levels by their own effort, but by just buying and importing our knowledge without asking for the ways and methods by which we gained it

Is that the same reason that lead to: the birth of algebra (al-jabr), the birth of optical theory, the development of the scientific method, the parachute, the sextant, coffee, glass, steam turbine, the syringe, the torpedo etc. etc. etc.
Islamic science only came in to decline after Christian and Mongol invasions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird
. Reason cannot communicate with or overcome violence.

t'over way round. Violence cannot overcome reason.
See: Gandhi, Jesus

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird
Islam will never be satisfied to just co-exist peacefully with others [etc.]

No, it is you who never be satisfied to just co-exist peacefully with Islam because you think like this. I have not seen evidence of any toleration from you at all. You do not seam to think that there can be any peace in the world whilst a Muslim draws breath.
It seams to me Skybird, that you wish to do to Islam what your countrymen once wished to do to Judaism.

Skybird 08-16-07 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Letum
See: Gandhi, Jesus.

Look at India, and then tell me what is left of Ghandi. Nothing. Who messed it up? Corrupt politicians, feudal landlords, and - Muhemeddans. ghandi's dream did not last for even 50 years. and he had to deal with the relatively civilized Brits. If he would have had to deal with the Almohaeds, for example, today we even would not talk about that he had ever been born and killed. Jesus: his followers, the socalled christians, are in open retreat from Islam all over the world, and do not resist in any way to get moved away time and again. Tell us about the status of christian communities in Islamic nations. Where is the reciprocate answer of Islam to the enormous and voluminous favors islamic communitoes have enjoys in the West during the last 40, 50 years? where are the churches being built for the plenty of mosques being built in Europe? Islam spreads rapidly in the West and turns our own cultural and legal systems against us. the natives have started to move out of their traditional homes because they can'T stand it any longer. But Christian communities as well as Jewish ones in Muslim world are still in open decline.

Quote:

No, it is you who never be satisfied to just co-exist peacefully with Islam because you think like this.
Yes, I do not have any willingness to tolerate with such an inhumane ideology with a record of intolreance and violance that is second to none,and see it as an equal. It is not. But I certainly do not expect you to understand that. your tolerance is apparently unlimited, even beyond all reason, it seems.

Quote:

I have not seen evidence of any toleration from you at all. You do not seam to think that there can be any peace in the world whilst a Muslim draws breath.
No, I do not talk about an individual person, but the ideology, and the idoelgy is cause of hate, intolerance and quest for domination, becasue that is what the ideology is teaching. Islam is not a peaceful relgion, but an aggressive, intolerant one. that does not mean that there are no people who ignore the content of their cult, think that envertheless they are muslim, and are non-violant in their living ways and behavior. This does not chnage that the Islamic ideology is not any peaceful or tolerant at all. You just think so, but you are wrong.

Quote:

It seams to me Skybird, that you wish to do to Islam what your countrymen once wished to do to Judaism.
Thank you. but the Jews did not attack Germany, they did not try to take over the country, and there believing and habits melt ionto the communities that are hosts to them, so they did not provoke the german crime against them, and thus were victims. I cannot say the same about Islam. It does try to overtake nations that are hosts to it, islamic communities integrate very badly and do not melt into the communities that host them, and it is Isdlam's declare dintention to make all world Islamic. One needs to be very much off reality to dare that comparison like you just did.

And note that this hread is running under one preassumption: that there will be or has been a nuclear attack of an Islamic faction against the West. And that is a very realistic threat. Unfortunately I must fear that I will live long enough to see it happen.

See the interview I had linked too yesterday. That guy is saying we need to weage a cold war against Islam, and that he expects that to last for a hundred years. He also said that we could benefit from the experiences we have made during the cold war with the Soviet Union. I would add that wether the cold war turns into a hot war or not, is left to Islam. It either accepts that we are not it's legitimate prey and that it's demands to possess all world need to be given up, or I accept to see it getting annihilated. To passively tolerate Islam taking all over is undiscussable for me. This is not in violation of my knowledge of Germany's dark chapters in history - but in explicit acknowledgement of it. I do not wish to see such primitiveness and inhumanity and lying coming to power again, like it was the case under the Nazi's reign. Once is more than enough.

The Avon Lady 08-16-07 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Letum
Time and time again religions have sprung back with vigor after disasters. See: Jews and Temples.

Yeh! :yep:

Hit me again! :88) :doh: :dead:

Happy Times 08-16-07 10:34 AM

Quote:

Is that the same reason that lead to: the birth of algebra (al-jabr), the birth of optical theory, the development of the scientific method, the parachute, the sextant, coffee, glass, steam turbine, the syringe, the torpedo etc. etc. etc.
Islamic science only came in to decline after Christian and Mongol invasions.
I thought it was the muslims that started the invading? In Iraq, Persia, Egypt, Syria, supressing Cristians, Jews and Zarahustrians. Many of these later scientists claimed to be Muslims and Arabs are really Persian, Assyrian, Greek etc.. not all even Muslims.
Prior to the Crusades, Muslims destroyed the Church of the Holy Sepulchre and killed Cristian pilgrims and priests.


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