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-   -   Deck Gun Rate-of-Fire (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=117684)

Von Tonner 07-02-07 01:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beery

RFB is the only version of SH4 that uses actual in-combat ROF examples rather than examples of gun tests from a firing range.
Oh heavens, here we go again, no one has mentioned RFB until HE shows up. For heavens sake THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOUR MOD. Chill out man!!!

Von Tonner 07-02-07 01:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kv29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beery
In theory a gun can be fired very fast indeed, but not in practice. In theory a man can eat a hot dog in about 10 seconds, but in practice people don't eat hot dogs in 'eating tournament mode'. The situations are completely different.
Listed ratings for gun ROF simply don't apply to combat.
Impossible to explain it better.
The main factor for a fast or slow ROF is related to our own human possibilities in a determined enviroment.

I think this has been discussed before, but lets refresh it a bit. Lets imagine the worst scenario: the weather is bad (which is game modeled) and the gun swings a lot (which is NOW modeled) so the guy at the trigger has to wait for the right moment when the sight appears to be on the horizon line, the gun crew cannot bringing more ammo at a fast pace because the deck is wet and moving a lot and is being constantly washed by waves, and to make things even worst the enemy is firing at them with the same or more powerfull explosive shells... :doh: and what about the shells weight? how many 65 lbs shells would they be able to handle until they get really tired slowing everything down?

btw, all the crew seems to be almost immune to gun fire (really bad modeled, can we change that??)

The ROF is an average, just that.
Ok, if this is the way it is going. If a man's life depended on how fast he ate a hot dog, believe me, we would ALL be eating them in 10 seconds, hell man, this was not a sunday school picnic, your crew, your ship, your own life depended on you getting those shells out pronto. Did you not read my post? "The enemy is firing..." That is why it was standard practice to bring ALL guns to bear, AA as well.

mookiemookie 07-02-07 01:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Von Tonner
h heavens, here we go again, no one has mentioned RFB until HE shows up. For heavens sake THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOUR MOD. Chill out man!!!
*ahem*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Horst Mikaelis
So I'd say that TM is closer to reality in that aspect than RFB.
:-?

Von Tonner 07-02-07 01:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mookiemookie
Quote:
Originally Posted by Von Tonner
h heavens, here we go again, no one has mentioned RFB until HE shows up. For heavens sake THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOUR MOD. Chill out man!!!
*ahem*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Horst Mikaelis
So I'd say that TM is closer to reality in that aspect than RFB.
:-?
I apologise, I really do wish we could have a discussion on the importance and use of deck guns without bringing in THAT mod as if it was the holy grail on RL.

tater 07-02-07 02:09 PM
No, but the ROF issue has been entirely in RFB threads. Not to mention it's in the title post of this thread.

I agree that a dispassionate look at ROF is extremely useful. There are 2 things to look at.

One, what the actual ROF was like at sea in a submarine (not at a test range).

Two, for SH4, what should a ROF be to be realistic.

The two are not the same. If a 5"/25 could actually do 15 rpm on a sub's deck in combat, for example (our stock SH4 4 second reload), what should we set it to to be realistic in game, given the limitations of the engine to model gunnery?

It gets pretty complicated, really. If we are dealing with stock SH4 in everything but gunnery, I think you need to grossly lower the ROF. Why? Because:

1. guns are too lethal to ships
2. they are too easy to hit with
3. there are no material casualties (mechanical problems) modeled
4. sea state is only modeled as a can shoot/can't shoot, get below issue.
5. Stock SH4 crews become submarine supermen in no time (adding bonuses to reload, etc).

I think that the reload time can approach RL reload times (regardless of how short that number was in RL) with the following mods made to the stock game:

1. kv29's gun destabilization mod which requires that you fire the gun when the deck is level to hit the aimed range.

2. shell lethality is checked vs:

3. ship DMs (particularly DDs).

4. The shoot/no shoot stuff regarding awash decks is looked at to eliminate gamey shooting from decks mostly under water.

5. the ROF for guns on enemy combatants and armed merchants are checked (they don't shoot enough, IMO)

6. The DM of the submarine vs enemy shells is checked (getting hit by a deck gun such that damage is done should be BAD).

7. AI sensro values need tweaking such that the ships will spot and return fire sooner.

There might be a few more, but those 7 all interact to make surface actions more effective than they were in RL. 1 through 4 will reduce effective ROF, and reduce hits and damage to realistic levels. 5 through 7 make getting into gunfights more dangerous than stock SH4 (which is a joke in that respect).

IMO, if a gun actually reloaded in 4 seconds in combat, I'd likely be happy with it set to 5-6 seconds as long as the other changes were made. The additional couple seconds would be a way to take into account all the factors we can't mess with.

tater

Von Tonner 07-02-07 02:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tater
No, but the ROF issue has been entirely in RFB threads. Not to mention it's in the title post of this thread.

I agree that a dispassionate look at ROF is extremely useful. There are 2 things to look at.

One, what the actual ROF was like at sea in a submarine (not at a test range).

Two, for SH4, what should a ROF be to be realistic.

The two are not the same. If a 5"/25 could actually do 15 rpm on a sub's deck in combat, for example (our stock SH4 4 second reload), what should we set it to to be realistic in game, given the limitations of the engine to model gunnery?

It gets pretty complicated, really. If we are dealing with stock SH4 in everything but gunnery, I think you need to grossly lower the ROF. Why? Because:

1. guns are too lethal to ships
2. they are too easy to hit with
3. there are no material casualties (mechanical problems) modeled
4. sea state is only modeled as a can shoot/can't shoot, get below issue.
5. Stock SH4 crews become submarine supermen in no time (adding bonuses to reload, etc).

I think that the reload time can approach RL reload times (regardless of how short that number was in RL) with the following mods made to the stock game:

1. kv29's gun destabilization mod which requires that you fire the gun when the deck is level to hit the aimed range.

2. shell lethality is checked vs:

3. ship DMs (particularly DDs).

4. The shoot/no shoot stuff regarding awash decks is looked at to eliminate gamey shooting from decks mostly under water.

5. the ROF for guns on enemy combatants and armed merchants are checked (they don't shoot enough, IMO)

6. The DM of the submarine vs enemy shells is checked (getting hit by a deck gun such that damage is done should be BAD).

7. AI sensro values need tweaking such that the ships will spot and return fire sooner.

There might be a few more, but those 7 all interact to make surface actions more effective than they were in RL. 1 through 4 will reduce effective ROF, and reduce hits and damage to realistic levels. 5 through 7 make getting into gunfights more dangerous than stock SH4 (which is a joke in that respect).

IMO, if a gun actually reloaded in 4 seconds in combat, I'd likely be happy with it set to 5-6 seconds as long as the other changes were made. The additional couple seconds would be a way to take into account all the factors we can't mess with.

tater
I agree with you 100% with regards to the deck gun in a game environment. Well said.

Palidian 07-04-07 03:57 PM
I have also seen rate of fire for that gun at 8-10 rounds per minute. Some rate account for the autoloader on that weapon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tater
Stock SH4 has the reload time set to 4 seconds.

Note that the navweaps site lists the ROF for that weapon as 15-20 rpm. Poor Bowfin didn't read the manual, or they would have fired faster I guess ;)

So 66-100% lower ROF than spec, probably due to the poor platform a submarine is for a gun, ammo issues, and everythign being soaking wet all the time.

I'm actually perfectly happy with ROFs being in the ballpark of what that Bowfin site claims as long as the guns aren't gyro-stabilized death rays. Firing for effect, lying to in a calm sea, that would be fine as long as a boat making flank into a stiff sea can't do the same. Kv29's mod looks like it will absolutely mitigate this problem and allow a more accurate ROF to be in game while preserving historical outcomes.

That said, if the real ROF was 10 (assuming plenty of ready ammo), I'd tend to drop it by some small % to cover problems still not able to be modded in. So maybe 8-9 rpm for a 10rpm gun (jams/misfire clearing, etc).

Not that in my testing of kv29's mod, I was lucky to shoot at ~8 rpm at close range with the reload time set to 4 seconds just because of the roll and pitch of the boat.

Palidian 07-04-07 04:05 PM
So instead of fixing what is *actually* wrong, put an annoying artificial limit on the ROF, how is this a simulation?

I however do not feel the shell dammage is too powerful in the stock game. To easy to hit? Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tater
No, but the ROF issue has been entirely in RFB threads. Not to mention it's in the title post of this thread.

I agree that a dispassionate look at ROF is extremely useful. There are 2 things to look at.

One, what the actual ROF was like at sea in a submarine (not at a test range).

Two, for SH4, what should a ROF be to be realistic.

The two are not the same. If a 5"/25 could actually do 15 rpm on a sub's deck in combat, for example (our stock SH4 4 second reload), what should we set it to to be realistic in game, given the limitations of the engine to model gunnery?

It gets pretty complicated, really. If we are dealing with stock SH4 in everything but gunnery, I think you need to grossly lower the ROF. Why? Because:

1. guns are too lethal to ships
2. they are too easy to hit with
3. there are no material casualties (mechanical problems) modeled
4. sea state is only modeled as a can shoot/can't shoot, get below issue.
5. Stock SH4 crews become submarine supermen in no time (adding bonuses to reload, etc).

I think that the reload time can approach RL reload times (regardless of how short that number was in RL) with the following mods made to the stock game:

1. kv29's gun destabilization mod which requires that you fire the gun when the deck is level to hit the aimed range.

2. shell lethality is checked vs:

3. ship DMs (particularly DDs).

4. The shoot/no shoot stuff regarding awash decks is looked at to eliminate gamey shooting from decks mostly under water.

5. the ROF for guns on enemy combatants and armed merchants are checked (they don't shoot enough, IMO)

6. The DM of the submarine vs enemy shells is checked (getting hit by a deck gun such that damage is done should be BAD).

7. AI sensro values need tweaking such that the ships will spot and return fire sooner.

There might be a few more, but those 7 all interact to make surface actions more effective than they were in RL. 1 through 4 will reduce effective ROF, and reduce hits and damage to realistic levels. 5 through 7 make getting into gunfights more dangerous than stock SH4 (which is a joke in that respect).

IMO, if a gun actually reloaded in 4 seconds in combat, I'd likely be happy with it set to 5-6 seconds as long as the other changes were made. The additional couple seconds would be a way to take into account all the factors we can't mess with.

tater

Steeltrap 07-04-07 05:41 PM
As far as RL examples go, I have 2 examples from Dick O'Kane (can't get much more RL than that.....):

1. With respect to power of the gun:
Wahoo expended approximately 80-90 rounds (!!) in sinking a fairly modest sized freighter (only 4,000t or less). In game I've destroyed a large European liner with about 6-10 rounds.... I think the gun is entirely too powerful in the damage it does per shell.

2. Concerning RoF:
In Clear the Bridge (p325) O'Kane recalls attacking, of all things, a yacht armed with heavy mgs and lots of radio antennae.

"With the slow rate of fire, about seven seconds per round (my italics), it was impossible to stay on the yacht for more than one or two hits.....and only 8 sure hits were observed. After 88 rounds.....the enemy still seemed under control...."

So, a definitive statement as to the rate of fire achievable under patrol conditions. The engagement commenced at 7000yds, closing to 4500. After 88 rounds the yacht was still afloat, and O'Kane expresses his doubts it would have sunk.

Conclusion:
* a RoF of 8-10 rounds per minute is entirely reasonable.
* the ease of hitting is excessive as currently simulated in game.
* damage done per hit is massively excessive.

Given this, I'd suggest:
* return RoF to something like 6-10 seconds per round, basedon gunnery skill of crew members and weather conditions.
* make hitting more difficult (although hitting a large target at 500yds shouldn't be very hard if seas are calm).
* reduce damage done OR make it linked very closely to hit location. A few HE rounds in superstructure will make life unpleasant for the crew, but not seriously threaten the ship - unless cargo make fire a major risk. AP hits in engine spaces and at/below waterline are far more likely to achieve critical effects.

Now, I don't know if all that is achievable. I do believe the gun does too much damage and it is too easy to hit (firing manually, at least) at longer ranges. When I was playing I used to make my crew fire, never controlling it myself. If hits were less frequent or more closely linked to sheel type/hit location/ship cargo, a more realistic RoF such as mentioned above would be OK.

Cheers

tater 07-04-07 06:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Palidian
So instead of fixing what is *actually* wrong, put an annoying artificial limit on the ROF, how is this a simulation?

I however do not feel the shell dammage is too powerful in the stock game. To easy to hit? Yes.
Do you have any idea what can, and what cannot be modded? Right now kv29 is pulling his hair out trying to remove the deck gun gyro-stabilization for more than the 4" gun. It's a major PITA, and apparently not consistant between guns in the code. We CAN'T always fix what is ACTUALLY wrong, that's the problem. Only some things are available to be modded.

Before he opened up that can of worms, there were 2 fairly easy things to mod (once other people busted their chops making the tweak files, that is), the ROF, and the damage per round.

So right now, that is it for definitive tools to mod the guns in something like RFB, change the damage done, and change the ROF. Beery's ROF choice is picking a way to make engageents match historical norms with one of the few tools available. Sure, it's a sledgehammer, but there isn't anything else in the toolbox right now.

Go ahead, make a new gun mod that makes the guns entirely realistic. You may only alter damage and ROF. I await the results.

Assuming kv29 can solve the stabilization thing (by no means certain, BTW), you may throw that into the mix, but right now, it only works for the 4" gun.

So those of us arguing in favor of reducing the ROF are doing so from the standpoint of what is currently possible instead of fantasy. I'd love it if there were more tools to make the simulation of guns better, but we don't have many---right now about 2 with a possible 3d if all goes well. There is another tool, and redwine/leovampire are working on it---changing the DMs of every ship. Talk about a major PITA...

tater

tater 07-04-07 06:25 PM
Steeltrap, that 7 seconds number is a great find!

What gun did Wahoo carry at the time?

It's interesting, because I changed the kv29 mod to have a reload time of 8 seconds. Not sure what crew quality does to the reload time, that would be useful to know.

tater

Torpex752 07-04-07 07:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tater
No, but the ROF issue has been entirely in RFB threads. Not to mention it's in the title post of this thread.

I agree that a dispassionate look at ROF is extremely useful. There are 2 things to look at.

One, what the actual ROF was like at sea in a submarine (not at a test range).

Two, for SH4, what should a ROF be to be realistic.

The two are not the same. If a 5"/25 could actually do 15 rpm on a sub's deck in combat, for example (our stock SH4 4 second reload), what should we set it to to be realistic in game, given the limitations of the engine to model gunnery?

It gets pretty complicated, really. If we are dealing with stock SH4 in everything but gunnery, I think you need to grossly lower the ROF. Why? Because:

1. guns are too lethal to ships
2. they are too easy to hit with
3. there are no material casualties (mechanical problems) modeled
4. sea state is only modeled as a can shoot/can't shoot, get below issue.
5. Stock SH4 crews become submarine supermen in no time (adding bonuses to reload, etc).

I think that the reload time can approach RL reload times (regardless of how short that number was in RL) with the following mods made to the stock game:

1. kv29's gun destabilization mod which requires that you fire the gun when the deck is level to hit the aimed range.

2. shell lethality is checked vs:

3. ship DMs (particularly DDs).

4. The shoot/no shoot stuff regarding awash decks is looked at to eliminate gamey shooting from decks mostly under water.

5. the ROF for guns on enemy combatants and armed merchants are checked (they don't shoot enough, IMO)

6. The DM of the submarine vs enemy shells is checked (getting hit by a deck gun such that damage is done should be BAD).

7. AI sensro values need tweaking such that the ships will spot and return fire sooner.

There might be a few more, but those 7 all interact to make surface actions more effective than they were in RL. 1 through 4 will reduce effective ROF, and reduce hits and damage to realistic levels. 5 through 7 make getting into gunfights more dangerous than stock SH4 (which is a joke in that respect).

IMO, if a gun actually reloaded in 4 seconds in combat, I'd likely be happy with it set to 5-6 seconds as long as the other changes were made. The additional couple seconds would be a way to take into account all the factors we can't mess with.

tater
Tater,
I believe you are right in there with this! A subs Deck Gun can have a solid quick ROF, however its the "hit/miss ratio" ROF that will vary considerably due to the variables.

Frank "Torpex" Kulick
:cool:

EAGLE_01 07-04-07 10:21 PM
Hi..
Don't mean to stick my nose in, but I posted this here before, back when someone else was discussing the ROF subject..

http://www.oldsubsplace.com/Submarine%20Deck%20Guns.htm

Hope it helps.

NEON DEON 07-04-07 11:52 PM
Von Tonner,

You posted a quote earlier in this thread.

Here is part of the quote:

"Lay alternate fire with the U-boat’s other weapons in order suppress return fire. There is a four second interval between rounds, and while the deck gun is reloaded, open fire with a short burst of anti-aircraft rounds. If within range, small arms fire from the MG34 is very effective at suppressing return fire. Suppressive fire from the 20mm and even the 37mm anti-aircraft cannon will not sink the ship, but is used only to prevent the crews from firing back."

It is about U Boats.

What was your source for the quote.

Steeltrap 07-05-07 01:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tater
Steeltrap, that 7 seconds number is a great find!

What gun did Wahoo carry at the time?

It's interesting, because I changed the kv29 mod to have a reload time of 8 seconds. Not sure what crew quality does to the reload time, that would be useful to know.

tater
The quote actually refers to Tang, armed with the 4", 53 calibre forward of the tower (much to O'Kane's irritation - he wanted it aft).

Hope it helps. Decg guns in these sims ALWAYS seem to be somewhat 'death ray' in nature - presumably playing to the casual gamer who expects to sink things with half a dozen rounds!

Gunnery generally has been a problem in these sims IMO. Freighters and DDs etc. seem deadly accurate within seconds - that was my experience in SHII and III. Believe it or not, I've found SHIV to be better in this regard in that I can dive before being hit, and even attack freighters from longish ranges with (seemingly) little risk of being hit.
Now, if we could just make it so receiveing any sort of shell hit of 4" or greater size would have a great chance of rendering it impossible to dive, we'd be on to something.

Cheers!


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