I don't think the AIM-54 was ever given to Iran in the first place. Even if it was, its not a very good missile against another fighter. Its a slow turner that was designed to take out the overwhelming numbers of Soviet Bombers before they could get close to a carrier (Soviet Doctrine was to overwhelm NATO carriers with shear numbers of bombers in the hopes that one bomber would get through to take the carrier out). The only AIM-54's ever fired in the middle of hostilities all missed - and they were fired against Iraqi fighters. One was the vulnerable MiG-25, and I forgot what the others were. One of the Aim-54's was even fired from AMRAAM range of 20 miles and still missed.

ANyway, this is why the F-14 / Aim-54 were retired. I'd go as far as saying that this was the final nail in the coffin for the F-14 in that it couldn't even get a kill with it's Pheonix missile. Sure they tried to sell it as a bomber later on, but it did not do so hot in this role and it was only an attempt to keep F-14's around I think by the people that loved them. Limited usefulness these days. Sure, you might get your kill with your Pheonix, but nothing is going to spoof the good old Aim-120 AMRAAM which is far better at killing its likely target - the fighter aircraft.

-S

The thing that makes the Phoenix a killer is it's speed. You don't know it's coming until it goes active, and by that time it's close and diving at you at Mach 5.

Why don't you think that Iran was ever given the AIM-54 in the first place. I didn't think that had ever been in dispute?

PD

Try Mach 3. An AIM-120 AMRAAM travels faster at greater than Mach 4. AIM-54 uses a controlled burn for distance flight and longevity. It also is one of the first missiles to use an advanced trajectory to enable it to reach out and touch you at longer ranges!

-S

I do know that in one well-publicised test, an F-14 fired four AIM-54's at four QF102 Drones, which had been modified to give a signature similar to MiG-21MFs; and on that test it destroyed two, hit and damaged a third, and missed the fourth, and in order to do that, its radar had to 'time-share' painting the four targets, as it could not lock and guide on all four at once. Still an impressive feat, but it nevertheless left it out of ammo with one (possibly two) 'hostiles' coming at it. So unless it could maintain a three to one or better kill ratio, and its enemy had less than that in superior numbers, the chances are it would lose, not including wingmen of course.

The Soviet doctrine of swamping enemies with less capable, but numerically stronger forces, has been shown to work on numerous occasions throughout history (though not always), but one only has to look at the T-34 versus the Panther and Tiger tanks in WW2 battles to see how it could and did work (albeit with horrendous casualties). The Panther was the German response to the T-34, but when the Wehrmacht asked why German designers couldn't make something like the T-34 for them, the response was that: 'they could, but it would never pass their quality control'! Still, that's the Germans for you.

In a war of attrition, simpler equipment is often a wiser choice, for example the MiG-25 and the MiG-31. Both of which the US and NATO were keen to get a close look at during the cold war. Eventually they did, when Viktor Belenko defected in a Soviet MiG-25 to Japan. Western designers were staggered to find that it was made mainly from stainless steel, rather than titanium or some other fancy metal, and had vacuum tubes in its avionics as opposed to transistors and microchips. Thus they began to dismiss it as a threat, however they did kind of skip over the point that even with all that old and simple technology in it, it was still a Mach-2.8-capable interceptor, which is what had got them all worked up in the first place, so much for military intelligence eh?

So I guess sometimes its perhaps foolish to underestimate a potential enemy, and I'm not suggesting that the F14s of Iran could be completely dismissed as no threat at all (providing they can be maintained in an airworthy state), but I do think that they are not a huge threat to a more modern aeroplane - especially one assisted by a vastly superior AWACs datalink system.

Anyway, let's hope we never find out.

:D Chock

By the way - a drone is much different than a pilot who not only can see the threat, but also has a huge interest in self preservation! Any pilot well versed in missile avoidance could probably defeat an AIM-54 with decent success.

By the way, the MiG-25 in question had two AIM-54's fired at it. One at less than 20 nm, and the other at 40 nm when it was clear the first missed. They both ended up missing. THere was a second engagement that I remember, which also missed.

-S

PS. THe F-14's radar can engage 6 targets simultanously, and track 24.

AMRAAM's would have missed as well. IIRC the Foxbat was balls to the wall away from the Tomcats. Even modern long range missiles don't have that kind of endurance to keep up with a max e-pole target. And they learned that from the Iran Iraq War. See F-14 on RWR, go other way on burner.

PD

The movable wings on the F14 fighter gave it the dual ability to have lots of life with the wings out and lots of speed with the wings swung back. The automatic manipulation of the F14's wings gave it better handling close to stall speeds in a dog fight. Today we use fixed wings but the body of the modern F22 rapors helps with lift at slow turning speeds and the new F22's have vectored thrusters which help control the planes stall parameter at slower speeds and higher angle of attack attitudes.

Beside the F14A has the first generation engines that never were powerful enough to push the F14 around. They were bad performing engines that killed a lot of good F14 pilots. And the electronics of these Iranian F14A is .... well older than Moses. Transistors and resistors have a shelf life when the PNP materials are no longer going to function as designed. They rot over time and materials go bad. So the electrons in those electronics will misbehave and foil Iran's plan to use those planes. And the more the train in them the faster they go bad. So they sit there and don't fly them and don't get the flight time necessary to remain proficient. Not to mention the physical G forces that those planes can deal to a pilot in a 6 G turn.

The F14A's were not a good plane. Only with the addition of newer more powerful engines did this plane start to perform right in the 1980's.

Iran will definitely not be controlling it's air space if the USA goes to war with Iran in the Middle East.

The USA's Phoenix Aim 54 missile's cost 1 million dollars apiece. They were designed to shoot down Soviet Backfire Bombers. At the end of WWII an American B29 bomber landed in Russian Territory and the Russians copied the design before ever returning the bomber to the US Air Force if they did that. They may have just kept the plane. They reverse engineers the B29's design and developed the Backfire Bomber which was capable of carrying cruise missiles. The Aim 54 was also designed to shoot down low flying cruise missile. It was not designed to take out small maneuverable jet fighters. Those jets were to be shot down with the AAARM medium range missles that were fire and forget not radar guided by the plane doing the shooting. The F14's carried three different types of missiles. They also carried the short range Fire and Forget Heat Seeking Sidewinders.

To avoid a Aim54 you first have to know it's there and where it's going. You just fly perpendicular to that missile's flight path an turn into the missile as it closes on you. There is no way that Aim 54 Horse of a missile can match your planes turn radius. It will pass right behind your plane if this maneuver is performed correctly and timed right.

I'd have to disagree with you that balls to the wall on the MiG-25 had anything to do with it. The Pheonix missed long before its 100 nm range and we all know the MiG-25 is not a real turner, and defintely can't do it without bleeding major speed. That thing is a straight line aircraft. The second pheonix was fired at 40 nm when it became clear the first one missed. Even the Phoenix should have full power available at 40 nm and the rocket motor should still be functioning properly. Basically the MiG-25 outmanuvered it.

Basically, a crappy poor manuverbility MiG-25 (The same aircraft in the same engagement no less) defeated a million $ missile. Not once, but twice. Nice.

-S

Future air wars will be fought with real time human controlled drone planes that can out turn a human occupied airplane. These new Radio controlled airplanes will be flown over enemy territory by an US operator sitting in a air conditioned war room back in the States or on some foreign soil US air base.

Right now the USA's biggest concern should be preventing Russia or China or anyone else for that matter taking out our GPS satellites in fixed orbits. We should be developing space based weapons that will defend or gps satellites. This program hopefully is covertly under way right now. Hopefully it's a secrete program that's been in development for a long time and is fully functional now. Because we need to keep a close eye on China and Russia if we want to preserve our way of life and keep the oil flowing to the USA from the Middle East.

You forget about laser ring gyro's which should give close to the accuracy of a GPS system in the event of failure. This is why the F-16 for example spends about 6 to 8 minutes sitting on the ground to align these gyro's prior to takeoff. GPS guided bombs also include them incase the signal is lost after bomb release.

Last but not least, to get a rough position, you only need 3 sats to triangulate your position. It would take a lot of effort to knock all of them out without some US nukes visiting your back door in response.

-S

The MiG-25 was the fastest combat aircraft on the planet still in service until the F-22 IIRC. It dragged the missiles in burner, which is REALLY effective. Maneuverability had nothing to do with it, it's pure kinematics. It's how I beat most ARH shots in the modern flight sims I play. :)

I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree.

PD

And here:

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewt...-start-30.html

An F-16 pilot says they could drag Phoenix missiles from as close as 12 miles in without being hit in simulated combat. Which makes me believe the success of the Tomcat in the Iran Iraq War was mostly due to the enemy's poor RWR equipment/training. I'll bet the Foxbat's engaged at 20 miles were locked before they were fired upon. And if an F-16 can drag a Phoenix from 12 miles, a Foxbat shouldn't have problems doing the same at even closer (or as you say 20nm). And every source I've ever seen says the Foxbats were running away in that engagement, not maneuvering.

PD

If you like your sims, fire up Falcon AF and put an F-14 against the MiG-25. It will show you what I am talking about. The MiG is not getting away from the missile, but can only avoid it. Make sure they are Ace pilots.

Now put an F-14 on you in the F-16 and test. Think putting the AIM-54 on the perpendicular and draw a half cone in the sky prior to impact. The AIM-54 will always miss. Try it with an AIM-120 and the story changes - you are dead meat! :p The only problem is, if the F-14 is at medium range or less, he always follows up with another shot, so don't find yourself low and slow - make use of that afterburner and prepare for missile #2! If the F-14 clocks in to 10 to 15 nm, he may let loose an Aim-120 - make sure you send back the favor becuase if you don't, he will guide that thing in to the point where the missile goes terminal for little chance of escape. If your missile is inbound to him, he has to break his lock to avoid it, giving you a margin of error to get away from the inbound AIM-120.

Basically, I fear the Pheonix for its ability to reach our and touch you and it will still have its kenetic energy from extreme ranges because that thing has a controlled burn on the rocket motor. This means you can be at 40 nm from the launch point and the missile will still have 100% kenetic energy and a burning rocket motor to home in on you even at 75+ nm. Using a a dragging method on the Aim-54 is not going to help you much if the missile still has a burn on the motor - it is smaller and lighter and has more thrust to weight than your aircraft so nothing you can do is going to stop it.

However, forcing its hand through exploiting its desire for lead pursuit is how it is defeated. A bomber has no chance since it is slow and lumbering, but any fighter aircraft has a very high likelyhood of avoidance through making this very heavy missile (Its archilles heel) into radical vector changes. Giving it a nice narrow line to follow (The result of parallel flight paths) is the best method for getting killed by this thing since not even a MiG-25 can outrun it - it would be out of fuel practically before doing so, and the engines in that thing burn up at Mach 2.8.

-S

PS. The F-22 is not as fast as an F-15 from what I have read. It can out-accelerate an F-15 when the F-15 is in full afterburner and the F-22 is still in military power (imagine that?), but at around Mach 2, some sort of shockwave forms around the inlets of that thing (Due to the stealth design of the inlets) preventing it from going any faster. Then again, it is classified, so this may not be true. This still makes the MiG-25 the fastest combat aircraft that is known in operation (though I bet Aurora or Switchblade is much faster). Being this fast is not a big deal though because an F-15 can not go quite as fast, but it has many times the range at speed as the Russians found out - The MiG-25 can go a little faster, but runs out of gas very quickly - this allowed the F-15's in Egypt to catch up and still shoot them down after the fact - as shown in Egypt. The F-15 stopped all MiG-25 recon flights over the deserts and effectively put the MiG-25 out of action as a useful recon plane.

PPS. The MiG-25 was a waste of Russian expenditure anyway. It was designed as an interceptor to the XB-70 - soemthign the US never made. That is why it was so short ranged - it was designed to shoot down only one plane that the US never ended up making and then it would return to base immediately.

I believe the F-15 was also built to fight a plane that the Soviet's never built?