It is!? :o

For me, yes. It is like flying a live weapon in maximum risk maneuvers
Those show flights are on the edge. You don't fly like that eternally. Sooner or later you get it. Much, much earlier than if you would fly normally.

Maybe you remember, half a year ago or so we had a thread about that German helicopter champion flying up and down between woods, with the rotortips just ten centimeters over the ground when the chopper made a turn. He crashed one day, was killed. nobody here was surprised, some saisd the same like I say today: you don't fly on the edge forever, sooner or later your luck is used up.

Okay with me if you do it alone. but with plenty of audience around - well, really, I still have the Ramstein images from the Tv coverage on my mind. It was a nightmare. Airshows with military jets are banned in Germany since then.

It's stupid to invite the devil for a dance. Sooner or later you learn he dances hotter than you.

"Inspiring the young":

http://www.google.de/imgres?imgurl=h...%3Dde%26sa%3DG

71 dead. Over 450 wounded, many still receive treatement until today. Not bad for just one fighter plane that carried no bombs on board.

Aren't the audience inviting the devil to dance in this case?

I don't know, these things just happen. Sure, you could go about it with bans, but I'm not sure if that's neccesarily the right way. We've had Rammstein, we've had Lviv, but people still come out to these things and I don't think blaming the organizers is neccesarily right - if people come to watch large metal objects flying through the sky, then they should realize that there is always some chance that something will happen. Likewise, I'm still not totally convince the practice is deadlier than most other activities. By the same logic, every manner of extreme sport, including rock climbing and paragliding should be banned to - people are unintentionally killed in voluntary activities by collision with heavy objects; earth is a heavy object.

Now when something like the infamous Tu-144 crash at Le Bourget happens and people living in houses outside the airport die, that really is a case where no playing with death was directly involved and the precedent is serious enough to consider some sort of drastic measures.

Must every yelling by the plebs on the street be followed - simply because they are yelling so loud? I am no fan of this theory about total and unlimited freedom, and with machines carrying thousands of gallons of jetfuel risking ridiculous stunts overhead, I vote that the stupid public needs to be protected from its own stupidity. But maybe that is neither liberal, nor politically correct. Which does not concern me in this case.

If a climber climbs beyond his limits and gets killed, usually he does not kill the audience at the ground. the comarison does not work. I'm not concerned for the pilots - if they want to try their luck, well: one shouldn't stop travellers. My argument is concerning the audience, and residents.

It is a difference to provoke havoc for others, or being cautious and falling victim to misfortune nevertheless.

By the way, I don't neccesarily disagree - just poking my usual pointed sticks :p

I'm not entirely sure what to think of the assumption that the public needs to be protected from this; part of me wants to say the equally politically-incorrect counter - that if people go to these things and don't for a second stop to respect the laws of physics (that incidentally govern large flying flammable objects), then they have themselves to blame as much as anyone. Still, it's true that there's no intelligence test involved for getting into an air show.


I've never been to an airshow like that (I've seen quite a few from a distance, though), though it's not that I'm afraid of going to one. I occasionally see our CF-18s over my house here, and I'm none the worse for it.

Also, I know that there have been security measures other than banning displays like that at airshows since Rammstein. I think a better, safer organization of these things in strictly non-residential areas may be a better way to go about it. It's sort of like zoos; zoos haven't been banned yet, though mauling accidents still occasionally happen. Is that a better parallel? :hmm:

On that point, let's close down any zoo that isn't involved in conservation or research. Seriously.

Polar Bears do not belong in London

Actually I disagree with Skybird when he says they are maximum risk maneauvers. If you look at any disply team the patterns they make are generally large radius low G turns, they don't pull that much compared to combat flying 5G maybe tops. The Red Arrows have the synchro pair and they do some higher G stuff but it is all preplanned. I think some of the solo displays by mil jets with bog standard military pilots in them more extreme. Look at the Typhoon being shown off or the Sukhoi. Much closer to on the edge maneauvers. Sounds to me like this was bad luck, hit something at the end of teh display while doing a turn.

As for running off the road while trying to watch them,. Driver Ed 101, ignore airplanes and keep your eys on the road.

The last blue angels air show I went to was in San Diego at Miramar in 1990 with over 200,000 people in attendance.

I was hot and saw a B-52 on exhibt with several people standing underneath the wings.

I edged my way over to the crowd under the wings as the Blue Angels did their show. I would come out and take a look then duck back under the wing for shade.

They did a split and came right at each other over the runway ... let me tell you those wings on the B-52 started vibrating and I could feel the vibs down deep in my soul.

I always wanted to be a pilot, but life dealt another card for me ... Those guys are great, I love them ...

It was sad to lose a buddy, but I know they'll make adjustments and be back up again.

The last accident the Blue Angels had was when they were practicing in Georgia back in 1999. Nobody who loves planes wants to see another accident.

They represent the best ... that's what I love about the US Navy Blue Angels.

Its funny to watch you Skybird. The way you talk, we should all stay home and lock the door because its unsafe to go outside. Oh wait! How do we stop housefires and such? Maybe it isn't safe at home! What ever are you going to do??!!! :D

-S

PS. I know what war is, and if you give me the keys to a $40 Mil fighter and tell me I get to fly it any time I want, but the only hitch is I have to defend my country with it when called - I'm there today!!!! No need to twist my arm. Besides, I love my country and I won't hesiteate to defend it and my home thank you very much. Nothing dishonest in any of it I say.

Guess we better ban all spectator sports and other recreational activities since it doesn't meet Skybird's approval.

Accident database-

http://www.airdisaster.com/cgi-bin/v....cgi?year=2007


Sky, you actually have video on your computer of the Flugtag '88 disaster? Why? :hmm:


Yours, Mike

Ramstein, '88-'92

there are patterns that include two formations heading each other and passing through each other at accumulated speeds of over 500 kn (both planes doing let's say minimum 250 kn each to maintain precise steering control). at such a speed both formation pass through each other, at 90° or 180° angles, and then wingtips and main bodies just meters away from each other.

Preplanned: I am sure pilots of cashed planes in the past also had preplanned manouveurs on their mind. but man is not 100% perfect, and doing such things reduces the error margin to extremely low values - or is unforgiving to any mistake at all, even a smallest deviation. that's why many good pilots got killed in the past, even under less stressing situation.

Nobody would recommend to zig-zag a sub at 50ft with 38 kn in a harbour area, fog and with heavy taffic everywhere and oil tankers in close vicinity. Nobody recommends to practice with tanks in urban area and hot ammunition, always precisely aiming beside the civilians. But for fighterplanes even more dangerous stunts are considered to be acceptable. This contradiction I do not get.


Play pool...!


Subman,

you again distort what I say as best as you can. Life includes risk, we all know that. What I condemn is to provoke ridiculously high risks for the actors as well as the audience and that are not needed at all. And my concerns are about the audience. If a pilot decides to try to challenge the devil, let him go, but let him try it in a way where he does not pose a risk to others. Else it would not make sense to prohibit driving on the wrong side of the autobahn, too.


Mike,

the page I linked - I googled only. I wanted to give some photo images on what ammount of distruction the impact did on the ground. Several hundred squaremeters on the ground turned into a killing ground. I doubt that the impact of a MK-84 has a similiar effect on the surface. The fire carpet crashed right into the visitor's area, at high speed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWugZJS7oR4

Watch this video and then anybody tell me:
is such nonsens really needed...??? I say this disaster was only this: provoked.

I'm in full agreement that these daredevil teams, paid for by taxpayers no less, should become history.

People want to sell their stuntmaking for profit? OK but the military doesn't need to have such expensive and risky extravaganzas just to show off.

RIP, Cmdr. Kevin Davis.

You are the king of distortion, so don't even get me started on that. When you don't like what an author has to say for example, you start to dig up dirt on the author instead of looking at his point of view and coming back with a valid argument.

For the Blue Angels, they are doing absolutely nothing unsafe if you study the manuvers. This guy that crashed however was inexperienced - that was the issue.

Have you actually seen their head to head passes from the side with them going over you? The spacing is not a few meters apart as you suggest. Try hundreds of feet. From the front of the airshow, this is hard to gather because of the speed involved.

Basically, what I write above is spot on as they say. You might as well not ever come out of your house.

-S

It is recruitment and public support, as well as public awareness on the professionalism of its military. It would be stupid to pull the plug on shows such as this, and it is hardly daredevil - they are doign nothing to endanger themselves at all, nor the public. That is why they have been doing it for over 50 years with only a couple incidents - all of them due to inexperienced pilots.

-S