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-   -   British Justice is too liberal (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=112673)

04-20-07 04:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by down and out
Quote:
Originally Posted by waste gate
How many times does one have to see the word plea in an arcticle to say, 'OK, this was a plea bargain'. Someone needs to sit in a court room for a while. I suggest you follow two or three people through the entire process. While you are at it ask defense attorneys (barristers I think you calll them) how the system works.
Have been through the system myself

Its not plea bargaining

Pleading guilty just speeds the trial along and cuts down expense

Doesnt mean the sentance is any less :nope:

Trust me
Share with us what the original charges lodged against you as compared to what the court heard, and what you were sentenced for. Different I'll wager. I also suspect no trial.

That is called plea bargain.

Letum 04-20-07 04:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by waste gate
Quote:
Originally Posted by down and out
Quote:
Originally Posted by waste gate
How many times does one have to see the word plea in an arcticle to say, 'OK, this was a plea bargain'. Someone needs to sit in a court room for a while. I suggest you follow two or three people through the entire process. While you are at it ask defense attorneys (barristers I think you calll them) how the system works.
Have been through the system myself

Its not plea bargaining

Pleading guilty just speeds the trial along and cuts down expense

Doesnt mean the sentance is any less :nope:

Trust me
Share with us what the original charges lodged against you as compared to what the court heard, and what you were sentenced for. Different I'll wager. I also suspect no trial.

That is called plea bargain.
Seriously gate, we don't have a equivalent of the "plea bargain" in the UK for crimes like this.
It's really that simple!

Why do you want to think we do?! Why do you think we do in the first place?!

I really should give up trying to explain things to you.

down and out 04-20-07 04:45 PM
The original charges were theft from the workplace
Charges in court were theft from the workplace
Sentance was custodial

AFTER a guilty plea at a court hearing

All you get when you meet your lawyer is " a guilty plea will look better on you than a not guilty one "

There is no room in everyday British justice for bargaining

The prosocution dont care what you plea
They have no need to rush you through

A not guilty plea would have delayed the trial by some months and the sentance would have been the same in the end
Maybe a little heavier for the fact you pleaded not guilty

But you certainly cant offer to plead guilty for a lesser\reduced sentance

04-20-07 04:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Letum
Quote:
Originally Posted by waste gate
Quote:
Originally Posted by down and out
Quote:
Originally Posted by waste gate
How many times does one have to see the word plea in an arcticle to say, 'OK, this was a plea bargain'. Someone needs to sit in a court room for a while. I suggest you follow two or three people through the entire process. While you are at it ask defense attorneys (barristers I think you calll them) how the system works.
Have been through the system myself

Its not plea bargaining

Pleading guilty just speeds the trial along and cuts down expense

Doesnt mean the sentance is any less :nope:

Trust me
Share with us what the original charges lodged against you as compared to what the court heard, and what you were sentenced for. Different I'll wager. I also suspect no trial.

That is called plea bargain.
Seriously gate, we don't have a equivalent of the "plea bargain" in the UK for crimes like this.
It's really that simple!

Why do you want to think we do?! Why do you think we do in the first place?!

I really should give up trying to explain things to you.
That was my implied question in my first post to this thread.

Quote:
If the British system is anything like the US system, and I think it is.
If I was wrong, which is very possible, I've been wrong before, why wasn't it poined out to me earlier? You and I both would have saved much time.
I see the word plea and it suggests:
Quote:
People plead guilty to a crime they did not commit to save themselves, and the court system the time, expense, and publicity, of a trial to a crime they may have commited.

Tchocky 04-20-07 04:53 PM
@ waste gate

8th post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Letum
There isn't a direct reflection of a "plea bargain" for cases like this in the UK.
All cases of this severity continue through the full court process, although a early guilty plea will ensure a faster court case and usually a reduced sentence.
The court case took place at Plymouth Magistrates Court.

04-20-07 04:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by down and out
The original charges were theft from the workplace
Charges in court were theft from the workplace
Sentance was custodial

AFTER a guilty plea at a court hearing

All you get when you meet your lawyer is " a guilty plea will look better on you than a not guilty one "

There is no room in everyday British justice for bargaining

The prosocution dont care what you plea
They have no need to rush you through

A not guilty plea would have delayed the trial by some months and the sentance would have been the same in the end
Maybe a little heavier for the fact you pleaded not guilty

But you certainly cant offer to plead guilty for a lesser\reduced sentance
Sounds like you should have gone to trial and let the state prove (beyond a reasonable doubt, is that the UK level or just the US?) that you were guilty of the charge.

Usually, in this country, it is the prosecution which offers the reduced charge.

down and out 04-20-07 05:06 PM
Thats the difference
They wont offer a reduced charge\sentance

Without going into details it wouldnt have mattered going to a not guilty trial

:rotfl:

The way it works here is you are charged and given a court date
You meet with your own lawyer beforehand
You attend court and plead guilty\not guilty

Court is adjourned pending reports either way

Inbetween you meet your lawyer and probation officers to discuss your circumstances etc
Probation officers also put in recommendations for sentance - up to the court if they listen to that recommendation

Next court appearance is for sentance if you pleaded guilty first time OR full trial if you pleaded not guilty

04-20-07 05:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by down and out
Thats the difference
They wont offer a reduced charge\sentance

Without going into details it wouldnt have mattered going to a not guilty trial

:rotfl:

The way it works here is you are charged and given a court date
You meet with your own lawyer beforehand
You attend court and plead guilty\not guilty

Court is adjourned pending reports either way

Inbetween you meet your lawyer and probation officers to discuss your circumstances etc
Probation officers also put in recommendations for sentance - up to the court if they listen to that recommendation

Next court appearance is for sentance if you pleaded guilty first time OR full trial if you pleaded not guilty
So, 'reasonable doubt' isn't part of British law? If that is the case, I feel for you folks. Sounds like if he was arrested he must have done the crime or else he never would have been arrested.:nope:

Correct me if I am wrong.

down and out 04-20-07 05:28 PM
You are wrong

:rotfl:

Being caught red handed with a van full of stuff doesnt leave any reasonable doubt :doh:

The same as being caught on video tape urging 2 toddlers to fight doesnt

Letum 04-20-07 05:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by waste gate
Quote:
Originally Posted by down and out
Thats the difference
They wont offer a reduced charge\sentance

Without going into details it wouldnt have mattered going to a not guilty trial

:rotfl:

The way it works here is you are charged and given a court date
You meet with your own lawyer beforehand
You attend court and plead guilty\not guilty

Court is adjourned pending reports either way

Inbetween you meet your lawyer and probation officers to discuss your circumstances etc
Probation officers also put in recommendations for sentance - up to the court if they listen to that recommendation

Next court appearance is for sentance if you pleaded guilty first time OR full trial if you pleaded not guilty
So, 'reasonable doubt' isn't part of British law? If that is the case, I feel for you folks. Sounds like if he was arrested he must have done the crime or else he never would have been arrested.:nope:

Correct me if I am wrong.
You really are hard work today gate!

What in down and out's post makes you think "reasonable doubt" isn't part of British law?

Seriously....I've read down and out's post 3 or 4 times now and I can't see how you got from his post to the "beyond reasonable doubt" system.

Skybird 04-20-07 05:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by STEED
Suspended sentence is a joke.
From the perspective of behaviorism, it is indeed. From any other perspective I could imagine, it is as well. Suspended sentences should be forbidden. If a judge think it is justified that somebody deserves just a warning shot (for whatever reasons), he should make the penalty less severe. For example every juvenile stealing in a warehouse for the first time would go to jail with me being the judge, without exception. The point is that I probably wouldn't send him there for months, when it is the first time. Mybe - depending on the case and my impression of it - only for one week or so. Enough to get the message thoroughly felt by the offender and give him a chance to perceive that being in prison is not a comfortable thing. A penalty that is not felt is useless, from a psychological perspective.

Letum 04-20-07 05:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skybird
Quote:
Originally Posted by STEED
Suspended sentence is a joke.
From the perspective of behaviorism, it is indeed. From any other perspective I could imagine, it is as well. Suspended sentences should be forbidden. If a judge think it is justified that somebody deserves just a warning shot (for whatever reasons), he should make the penalty less severe. For example every juvenile stealing in a warehouse for the first time would go to jail with me being the judge, without exception. The point is that I probably wouldn't send him there for months, when it is the first time. Mybe - depending on the case and my impression of it - only for one week or so. Enough to get the message thoroughly felt by the offender and give him a chance to perceive that being in prison is not a comfortable thing. A penalty that is not felt is useless, from a psychological perspective.
That's not gonna be cheep. Short sentences cost a lot, not only in prison space, security and admin, but also because if often means the guilty party loses his/her tax-paying job.
Suspended sentences do reduce crime and they are cheep. They do help from the perspective of behaviorism because the guilty party often serves the full sentence and more in prison if they commit another crime in the sentence period.
I don't want to waste anymore tax money then is absolutely necessary when dealing with those that find themselves on the wrong side of the law.

P_Funk 04-20-07 05:41 PM
I think that Skybird gets the point somewhat. but I am hesitant to throw kids in jail without question.

There needs to be a purpose in sentencing. It isn't just good enough to say "Lock 'em as long as we can". The point of a criminal justice system is rehabilitate people when you can. The problems with lengthy prison sentences is that they desocialize inmates, attach strong stigma to them, and ultimately don't deal with the underlying issue of why a crime was committed.

If encarceration alone were good enough then the US, the most encarcerated nation in the world, would have the loweset repeat offender rate.

04-20-07 05:53 PM
Ya see, I was trying to be accepting of other's place and I was slammed for it.
I even admitted my lack of perfection and that I have made mistakes in the past.

down and out told me I was wrong in my assesment of British law. The attacks were only superfulous and didn't contribute to any positive discourse.

Letum 04-20-07 06:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by waste gate
Ya see, I was trying to be accepting of other's place and I was slammed for it.
I even admitted my lack of perfection and that I have made mistakes in the past.

down and out told me I was wrong in my assessment of British law. The attacks were only superfluous and didn't contribute to any positive discourse.
Terribly sorry if I caused any offense gate, I was just trying to understand your line of thought.


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