Thats what ive experienced. You know , i was just thinking. In SH3 there was basically just one pressurehull. While there was compartments, the overall pressurehull seemed to act as one singular object. Or at least, so is my impression. BUt in SH4, its like.. we now have 4 or 5 different pressurehulls, and each one acts like it's the only pressurehull in the boat, as indicated by how EVERYTHING goes after any single one folds in. In otherwords, its not localized anymore. If the hull was localized, then only one compartment would be damaged, no?

it's late, im tired and rambeling. :roll:

That was parto of my question, the damage seems to continues when submerged, i exoerienced the same, but i let the sub on surface later, i receive the message all damage reapired sir, or so similar, and sail a good time.... bulkhead repaired, and when submerged another time.... the ship starts to sink.

The intersting if this way can works is... if we can reduce the crash speed, to a balanced value, to give you time to reach the surface and repair the hulll.

The matter is, after a good time of surface sailing, if you can dive another time without sink.

This way can have a good and a bad point.

The good is, may be we have a chance to avoid the "unreversable sink", the bad is the sub become so resistent to the "crush pressure"

:up::up::up:

Hull damage acts entirely differently than battle damage. I am finding hull damage to be modeled fairly sanely, other than the bizarre need to completely surface. I guess you can think of it as a chance to inspect and patch

Compartment and equipment on the other hand, do all kinds of unexpected things, especially bulkheads. Bulkheads get referred to as "pressure hull damage" but they are simply components, supposedly interior walls, that act like they are exterior walls. They do not influence the hull HP as far as I can tell, but they do have a dramatic impact on displacement. They should isolate leaks to a single compartment, problem is when a compartment gets damaged, nearly -everything- in the compartment is toast - meaning no leak isolation. As far as I see, bulkheads are more of a problem than a cool addition. I hope this is one of the things they tweak in 1.2

I think the hull is still a singular opject, and it can be tweaked to act reasonably.

The problem starts when they start taking internal components and assigning them hull duties, and making us all think there are multiple hulls. Yes I know IRL bulkheads provide structural integrity, but lack of it it should have simply inflicted damage to the singular hull, and not be capable of starting leaks - their role is to contain them once started.

Instead they make the boat seem like its falling apart and suddenly made of lead.

I have been DC'd or attacked by AC several times while testing and have played them out - I really do think the type=wall/null makes bulkheads act differently. I will be looking at compartment and equipment damage once I get the hull sorted out.

Everything at once damage is what make it not work for me.

Have you increased the Bullkhead hitpoints at all?

edit: it's that bloody chain reaction, domino effect. Seems to me thats the crux of the problem. I know im citing the obvious thats already been covered, im just thinking aloud is all, i havent gone back to look at this issue in awhile. Might be a moot point anyway, as the next patch notes said their tweaking sub damage model.

No I am just isolating hull damage by pressure at this point, and I intend to stay away from increasing hit points. I will even leave hull HP at stock if they are sane after 1.2.

I intend to release a simple crash depth mod shortly after 1.2 is released, then start delving into non-hull damage - after their damage mods are in place.

1) Wet Compartments
2) Dry Compartments
3) Equipment by Type

I am hoping the recurring damage will be fixed in 1.2. I am hoping that the invisible damage that sinks you will be fixed in 1.2. If so, my priority will bes learning how to isolate damage and removing the "its ALL broke" syndrome within a compartment.

I think I know where armor class went, and if I am right, this will help in this persuit.

edit: yes on domino, yes on wait on patch ;)

Agree with you... :up:

It might be worth understanding this bit in the equipment.upc file, in particualr the bulkhead:

Yes, but I think it is more about classification and disposition of damage already applied. I will be looking at understanding the application of damage at first, with the hope of controlling or preventing to a degree.

Yah. The most you can get out of that is to shorten the repair time. In theory, if the pressurehull equipment piece is a cuase of flooding then fixing that, you would think mimize the flooding.

I think im going to start looking at the zones.cfg more. Its worth noting that for testing damage, ive rigged torpedos to run circular every time. So its like getting smacked with a depth charge ever test run, but it sort of speeds up the process of the magical domino effect.

Ive also noticed (at least in the porpoise) that the flickering ilghts and such is more prominant in the conning tower. If you stay in the control room the whole time you might never notice the lights flickering. About the only indicator is the leaking water.

Floodingspeed = 0.000001 is the slowest possible setting and I have already figured out how to do that. It is a Compartment only setting. The hull itself is not causing flooding - it is the pseudo hull bulkheads IMO. The hull itself works perfectly until it fails catostrophically.

I hadn't noticed that about the Porpoise, but I will recheck - I really like that boat and it is my game favorite I think.

Edit: LOL, I was testing the door open keys, and fired a salvo. I noticed I had one running circular and manuevered into place. Engine room was a mess, big hole all the way through the boat graphically. All damage was repaired in short order, but the hull was still damaged at .24something. It never gets repaired (refit / new patrol ?).

I thought it was pretty funny that a hit like that was survivable - it should have been totaled.

One thing ive learned is once you get damaged like that, you cannot dive again, which i completely agree with. Last test run i reduced compartment hitpoints to 1, shot myself with a torpedo, got the boat to the surface, but the instant i tried to submerge again, she sank like a stone. You should have seen the dive angle, it was near vertical, quite halarious. Anyway Right now im just studying the effects after toying with different variables.

edit: I
Im thinking the domino effect is an arbitrary decision made by the game. And any percentage loss to any one of the bulkheads, seems like its being applied to the sub as a whole. Not just the one bulkhead.

Mechanically speaking its the same effect from Sh3, on its applied differenty. Sh3 applied the crushing damage to hull integrity (IE, Hitpoints), whereas Sh4 seems to be applying it to components and sub hitpoints as well? Im not sure but its looking at more then SH3 did, that is for certain. Anyway im not sure the domino effect can be stopped, only the time it takes for the laundry list to appear, to be slowed down.

Wow. I just went through for another round and had a peek at stock numbers for a reference.

As it turns out, the "desired" Crash Depth x 1.33 was almost dead on to what they used in 1.1 for padding.

Crash Depth/Speed Combos Ubi then mine

S18 122/2.0 120/.09
Por 150/2.0 149/.112
Sal 152/2.0 150/.112
Sar 152/2.0 150/.112
Tam 152/2.0 151/.112
Gat 190/2.0 180/.135
Bal 240/2.0 239/.18


Major difference is simply that my crash speed is radically slower. Note that this iteration is over twice as fast as my last test. I reset HP to stock on all subs.

I am going to play with this until 1.2, no more real testing - just for "feel".

Ok guys - maybe I am being a bit boneheaded here - and if so chalk it up to my lack of experience in modding. I did some of my own stuff for sh3 - but for personal consumption only as I never got results I was happy with. However, with the fubar damage model I see - and what you guys are testing - I am going to make a couple of observations. By all means - correct me if I am wrong on anything!

Zones.cfg - pretty useless now for sub edits
Classname.UPC - where all the real internals are at now.

The damage issue of the deathspiral seems to be not an issue of "visible" flooding - which I will get to in a minute - but accumulated damage to an area results in unreported (but flotationally important damage). This is the cause of the things appearing 100% fixed - but your boat not being able to gain a neutral bouyant state. Now if this is the case - you have equipment damage that "fixed" become functional - but contributes to decreasing your ability to float.

Like I said - this may be boneheaded - but why not make all the equipment "weightless" for purposes of floatability? That way - accumulated damage wont affect the displacement of your boat. Not sure how to do that as I havent found any displacement or floatability variables for the subs equipment in either the zones.cfg or in any of the UPC files for the subs. Zones seems to be a mere holdover from sh3.

This is the only way I can see that could reasonably explain why a sub at 100% repair and no flooding can still sink like a rock.

Next item is bulkheads. IRL a bulkhead keeps flooding from spreading from one compartment to another. In SH4 - it seems its the bulkhead that LEAKS - instead of the hull! Since the bulkhead is internal to the hull - this has obvious flaws to start with. But consider this - remember how each SH3 "room" was its own entity with equipment? Maybe try looking at the bulkhead AS the room - instead of fixing the room your fixing the "bulkhead". Its not realistic - but if we can control bulkhead damage - everything might fall into place.

Hull damage itself only seems to have an effect of damage caused by depth - aka hull stress leading to crush. If we look at it that way - we have 2 damage models working here - one internal - and one external. They do overlap as external will apply damage internally - but (I suspect) internal only affects floatability - thus only having an INDIRECT effect on the external model.

My ability to mod - and my patience and attention to detail - are limited - so instead of spending hours on something that will just drive me bonkers - I figured I would throw out the thoughts and see what comes of it. I will be fiddling as I can with some numbers - but I have to apologize that I cant match the dedication of many of you.

Hopefully these thoughts help - or your corrections will at least help me understand what I am doing a bit more.

Thanks and good hunting
Captain Haplo

I think you are more right than wrong and you have good instincts. I just posted on this topic in another thread. http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=112680

I think much of what we used to twiddle with in zones.cfg is now internal to the NSS_*.zon file itself. However it is interesting to note that they introduced NEW compartments in the uboat section of zones.cfg in 1.2....