I think that its very partisan to think in terms of parties pushing an agenda. I mean if someone said your house is burning down you wouldn't ask him who he voted for to validate his statement. You'd look at your bloody house and see if you needed to get the hose.

I also don't just buy the "coincidence" statement. I mean sure the world is gonna keep changing. But we are a tiny little event in the history of the world. I find it a bit too obvious that within 2 centuries of the industrial revolution the world is suddenly getting warmer fast. If the world is changing naturally then we're expediting the process in an unmanaged way. Life adapts slowly to change. The change we're bringing would see the world get 20 to 50 degrees hotter in 100 years.

The sad reality is that with global warming animal species will die, ecosystems will be changed drastically and if the polar ice caps melt then the shores of out biggest cities will be flooded. Nobody can say that "real life" isn't going to change. Thats just a naiive contrarian point of view. You also can't say that its a normal change in the earth and then say that its not a change at all. Its one or the other, but when a planet's complexion is changing its definitely gonna change things.

Lastly I reject the idea that change to the earth is natural and that we have no business fooling with it because the earth "doesn't need to be saved". I agree that the earth will go on. But what we ought to be saving is ourselves. We could destroy the balanced ecosystems of the world, starve to death, and in a million years life will still exist. But you can't ignore a change that we are expediting rapidly simply because the planet won't be as easily annihilated as the human race.

Great points, imho. My view is that whether global climate is rising or not isn't really relevant; smog, respiratory health warnings, depleting oil reserves, and oil politics are. Even if the climate is not changing these are all very compelling reasons to cut back on fossil fuel combustion.

I agree. the whole "Leave it alone, its been fine for a billion years" argument is just, I dont know, not very thoughtful. It amazes me that there is even a debate about if we are or are not damaging the planet and its respective eco-systems. Absurd. :-?

Rejecting or accepting man's responsibility is not the issue. How to prevent global warning is not the question. Even how to limit it is not the question anymore.

How to survive it - that is the only question here.

It has become a simple question of life and death for me.

The world is changing. We only haggle, confused.

Have we lost all our reason? Have we ever had that? It's no meteor impact that brought us to this situation. It was ourselves - and nobody forced us.

Get that chill pill, quick.

Correct. No one forced us to stop peeing in the streets, riding horses, eating from trees and dieing from hunger or the plague. Us nasty folks. But I think the guy who first got that whole fire thing figured out in his cave is really to blame for all this.

Seriously,...nah. Would just get nasty again. Enjoy your life...

Simplifications are not constructive. They prevent exactly that. And often intentionally.

Even if the humans did not cause the global warming, we are contributing to accelerating it. As Skybird said, it's knocking at our door right now and it can kill us. No time for whining and pointing at the guilty ones, but instead to see what we can do to mitigate it. Time to discuss is over. Now is time to fight, no matter who started it.:yep:

Jesus, talk about Al Gore's dream come true...:o


You people are talking like it's the end of the world. I know the planet is heating up. I can't see how we are responsible. What I can see is that if we sign the Kyoto Protocol, you can kiss western economy and possibly civilization goodbye. I belive "Scare Tactics" are the words for this.

Environmental caretaking leads to kissing civilization goodbye, hear hear! :huh: I believe "Scare Tactics" are the words for this.

"Wer nicht hören will muss fühlen."

Anyhow, the American and Chinese attempts to soften up the summary conclusions obviously have been stopped the last minute, so that these information finally passed the resistance raised by these and some other nations. German environment minister Gabriel attacked the US sharply today, labelling their behavior as "scientific vandalism".

At the same time, German governemnt is betraying it's own statements - CO2 should be reduced, but instead of going for oil, solar, wind, nuclear, gas powerplants - 40 new coal powerplants are planned to be build in Germany, saying they are emitting less CO2 than older facilities (but still more than other energy forms).

If that is the standard of future dealing with climate change, we can give up right now.

Think for a second: The US signs the Kyoto Protocol. This limits the amount of CO2 that factories and buisnesses can produce. The buisnesses see the fact that there is now a limit on production, and hence, wealth. They see China (whom will not give a damn about pollution, treaty signed or not) or Austrailia (they have not signed it yet) as a source of more income than the US. The buisnesses pack up and move out. Now the US is left with a weak economy because no postive-minded buisness man will see any profit from the country due to the strict limits on productivity. Our country now has to buy from these sole places, who could (and probably will) get greedy, and jack up the prices for imported goods. Now, who in the US has the money to pay for all of that? There are no truly profitable buisnesses in the country, and no real income. Don't you see it?

I don't speak german...

They can throw names and whine all they want. We are probably some of the only people who can see through the lies.

Hipocracy from the German government? Maby they see it too, or they are like China (They don't give a darn).

Let's hope it happens, for the sake of our children.

I see that perfectly. However, your attitude is no answer. You think, if the others don't play ball, then we don't do it, too. result: NOTHING will ever be done. If some nations step forward and try to do something, it may work as an example for others to follow (which at the latest necessarily will happen when the costs of ignorring the needs of changing ourselves outweight the profits gained by staying like we are, and start to severly paralyse the freedom of acting of the state). By that, guarantees are not given, but our chances are better that some thing will be done. No other nation (including china) emits so much CO2 like the US. That brings the US into a special responsebility of setting examples.

Maybe you forgot, but you can't breath neither money, nor CO2. And when you see your kids suffering from environment-related diseases and allergies, you maybe will rethink your priorities.

A saying. It means something like "who does not want to listen, must learn by suffering the pain."

Exactly the opposite, you produce them by metric tons per day. The amount of distorting scientifc data and ignoring unwelcomed news is breathtaking and absolutely unique in the world. It it enrages more and more antions as well as private people worldwide. But you are feeling safe behind two oceans, so don't mind.

Even China showed more flexibility in the end, during the final conference yesterday, than America.


You contradict your former statements here. You do your best to guarantee ongoing damage - but then hope for the best...???

You are only thinking short-term. Consider this hypothetical situation: US gets weened off of combusting so much fossil fuel to meet Kyoto, China's combustion skyrockets with the influx of migrating American industries, fuel resources run dry in X years... China is left hanging with no alternative while the US has been running on nuclear/hydrogen/whatever for years and years. Your hegemony is safe for another little while and we as old men can sleep soundly at night :D

Oh, and of course, China is much easier to conquer if all of its soldiers have severe asthma from the perpetual black toxic haze that will result from this supposed industry boom!

But what can be done? You claim that by human intervention you can try to stop this "Global Warming" theory, yet supposedly this was all started by human intervention. Or can we just go on and adapt, like humans have for the past thousands upon thousands upon thousands of years. Besides, I see no creditable proof of CO2 emissions directly affecting global temprature rise. Even the National Science Foundation (or something like that) came in on Al Gores parade during his little speech in `D.C. saying there was no research that directly linked CO2 and temperature gain.

Or I can see that "in the end," this was all for nothing and just a big scare because of some falsified data.

Thanks, I guess...

Who decides what the lies are? Who decides which data is correct? You? Germany? The USA? Me? Who?

No, I meant "Let's hope it happens, for the sake of our children." for giving up. I don't want to see my future kids enslaved behind laws that limit their freedom for a (still) unproven fact. I don't want to see my kids grow up in fear that if they fart one too many times, that if they get in a car that runs on an internal-cumbustion-engine they will end all life on the planet, because of a stupid law invented by people who would rather cower behind one man's words than try to see the reality of the situation. We are harming ourselves with these imposed laws, protocols, and treaties.

So then the world is left in ruin, one country that killed itself and the rest of the world in self-induced poverty. Besides, old men die quicker...;) :p

Conquer with what? A "Green" army? Hah!:lol:

I guess the US could sign onto the Kyoto Protical, which was rejected not only by the Senate, but with the recommendation of the Clinton administration, and then just ignore the protical like every other nation has done.

It'll give the leftist, what about the children, who we favor aborting, folks a win on paper.