Im not too sure if it is even possible today, with the invention of AEGIS the threat of cruise missiles is very low, plus (I have not heard this from any of you yet) Standard carrier battle group formation ALWAYS includes 2 (sometimes 1) SSN's, Los Angeles Class for the U.S.

The SSNs virtually eliminate the threat of SSK intrusion (except maby for a 212 or a Go(a)tland, but even then once the SSK fires, it will give itself away) I think the possibility of an SSK killing a CVN or LHD is VERY low, and getting lower because of advancing technology.

Maybe... all this depends on things like how many you shoot, what kinds of missiles they are, etc. AEGIS is powerful, but it is not a magic cruise missile shield.

What things say on paper and how things actually work are two different things.

Just because it says there's a 688 in a CSG doesn't mean that he's RIGHT THERE in the formation. He might be quite a substantial distance away from the CSG, he might even have been sent into the area of operations days in advance, covertly paving the way, gathering intelligence, making cruise missile strikes or assuming a blocking position in critical chokepoints.

I don't see that it's impossible for the SSK to get past an SSN, and if the SSK has fired, then he's essentially done his job right? Afterwards isn't really important from the US perspective. Then it's just a matter of how effective the torpedoes are. That's not really the submarines fault, though, if it employs them smartly. The CVN or LHD might still luck out and somehow survive, but it'd still most likely be substantially damaged. That'd be almost as good.

I don't know how likely it is, but even if it was unlikely the high payoff for a nation in conflict with the US would almost certainly make the attempt worthwhile. The possibility of success enables them to hold at risk any forces operating anywhere enemy subs are known to be operating.

It can be done. It's not easy, but it can be done.

So a KILO has to do it by being sneaky, striking what it wants, and then running.

Not yet, no. It's been sitting in my boss's bookshelf for a while now, though. I'm thinking I need to borrow it. Ugh... so much to read. I'll have to put it in the queue some time after I finish the current book on ancien regime Europe and the public sphere.

Does it have lots of diagrams, charts, numbers and calculations? I like that.

Exactly. It's intended for access denial. That's what I use them for. You pre-position them someplace, and then wait for strike groups to run over them. In this sense, a KILO is sort of like an intelligent, mobile, mine field. That's fine though, they can sink ships.

Right, but they had a little bit of a different spin on things. The big limitation of the KILO is not it's weapons load, but it's speed. That forces a KILO to be constrained by the limiting lines of approach of the target in order for it to successfully execute it's attack. That's exactly what makes it an interesting tactical problem, because you have to really think about the maneuvering within a limited set of space while not getting too close to the screening warships.

The Oscar, on the other hand, being a nuke, doesn't have to deal with that problem as much. It's ability to maintain high speeds for long periods of time means it doesn't have to wait for the strike group to come to it, but can be more aggressive. It just needs the word on when to shoot it's missiles.

Nobody has nuclear ASROCs anymore.

FOR THE GLORY OF THE MOTHERLAND!!! :D

Actually it's not that bad. You just have to be slinky and willing to pick your fights. You can't be like, "Oh! there's a DDG I better shoot him." It's more like, "Oh.. there's a DDG, I better keep my distance." The KILO v. fast moving strike group problem requires a much cooler player.

That would be my favored approach, were I the OPFORCOM...

Agreed!

TG

Submarine Command by Ben Bryant was originally published as One Man Band in 1958.Being a real fan of the RN submarine service i have both books!It is largely a book of his wartime memoirs but it does contain a chapter he calls technical interlude in which he describes penetrating a screen and getting into a firing position.This book is based on WW2 submarines and straight running torpedoes.It has some diagrams but no complex formulae.Bryant was sinking ships by eye not by a tactical computer.Some of his methods can be gleaned from the rest of the text.For basic skimmer sinking it is a good read.

http://www.mors.org/awards/mor/2002.pdf
This is an article called the Diesel submarine flaming datum problem.
If you can find it there is another article in the NPS library written by a Hellenic Navy officer about attacking in a diesel.It is quite old though but you can find a copy on the net.

SeaQueen I really enjoy your scenarios. I wish you would make more or publish the ones you have. Bill would always be happy to host them or you could do your own site with theory. That could be fun.

Thank you. Honestly, I have to be careful with what I publish, though. I don't want to break any agreements or laws. This is the problem when wargames become your profession and you hobby...

The scenario we're talking about is just the NATO EXWAR Exercise scenario I made, or variations on it. The slides that go with it should have sufficient information for you to build your own, so you're not just constrained to doing the same thing in the Norwegian Sea. You could exeriment with lots of other places. Really, it's a pretty generic scenario. I have to say, it's become my favorite scenario. It plays in an afternoon, it's as realistic as I can make a DW scenario, it plays a little bit different every time, and it's extremely challenging without being impossible.

i have a kilo (lin san liu) vs US cv group combat mission that ive been running now and then for a coupla months now.

i concur with your initial assesment.

i quickly decided that 2nd attack was almost always pointless.

i prefer to fire the 1 salvo of 6 and run like hell during the precious few moments the enemy is occupied trying to evade my torps. Sinking the cv AND surviving is a rarity.

if i attack a second time in this scenario, it leads directly to my demise.:dead:

Oh interesting! I was going to put one out soon. People seemed to enjoy the Expeditionary Strike Group one, so I figured that a Carrier Strike Group (CSG) scenario would be a logical extension. :D

Btw, I finally found a situation where it was advantageous to shoot my way in. I made a mistake on my maneuvering board and ended up choosing a course such that my CPA to a DDG was less than ~2Nmi. At 3Nmi, I realized I was going to be detected shortly by one of the screens so I shot 6 SET-53 torpedoes. 4 of them hit. While the DDG wasn't sunk, it was out of action, which is good enough for me.

Having left a flaming datum, I ran for the center of the formation and shot my wakehomers at the CVN. Ta dah! :rock:

It depends. The other day I shot a salvo and some of the torpedoes hit the shotgun ship and not the aircraft carrier, so I shot the second salvo. I figure if I have 'em I'm shooting them. It's not like I get bonus points for using fewer torpedoes. If I'm lucky I might get a combat logistics ship (ideally) or a surface combattant.

I have yet to get killed in the improved KILO. In the export one that's a different story, but the improved one I do a lot better in. What happens with me frequently is that I shoot and whiff. If you figure on a CSG clipping along at ~20kts then the space between the limiting lines of approach is quite narrow. Since there's not really any way to make up time and try to catch up with a short burst of speed, it's pretty easy to put one's self in a bad position to take a shot, and the torpedoes miss, or you end up out of range.

Attack once and once only coming back for a second attempt is litteraly suicide because the enamy will be waiting for you to come back, however if you have ID'd all surface and sub units and there are no targets that are sugnificant threat and if they are put yourself in in a position where your less likely to be attacked.

The second attack is one heck of a lot harder than the first.

I'm not saying I'm leaving and then coming back. I generally shoot at such a close range that there really isn't time to go anywhere. I'd phrase it more as a second salvo.

please do so !

SWEET

i recall one occasion where i crippled the carrier with my 1st salvo.
this enabled a second salvo to put it on the bottom.

in an ssn i would do that - keep firing and trying to run ahead for another attack until empty. but in lin san liu i feel quite overmatched/outclassed.

i dont like the way the game never detects a scope/masts. so i am doing a sonar only attack. Often times I am firing in to the formation simply hoping that i have focused on the cv (im using some random elements so the formation differs every time) im not using fast reload.

yes it sure is !

My general concept of " success " in this mission (more or less)
after the basic "intercept and get into range"

1) SURVIVAL !
2) fire my salvo prior to detection (see point 1 :) )
3) hit anything
4) hit the carrier
5) sink anything
6) major damage to carrier
7) sink the carrier

pts 5 and 6 easily flip flop depending on size of sinking ship.