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Wow, great pictures thanks for posting! :yeah: :salute:
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Recharging batteries
Davey,
I got a question about battery recharge. In the SHIII stock game, it seems that for the U-Boats too recharge their batteries they had to disconnect an engine from the propeller, and connect it to a generator and do the recharge. It reflects on the boat's speed and engine rpms. But Fleet boats as it seems had 4(!) Diesel engines. And when recharging, the speed is not affected at all. So, how was the operation to recharge? Two engines to propell the boat and the other two disconected from the propeller shafts and connected to generators to recharge? And after that, all four would be connected to the propeller shafts (two engines starboard, two port)? And what is the size of those diesel engines? 12 cylinders? 24 cylinders? I never visited a boat museum but I just wonder what the size of the machine room mighty be. It must be enormous (for a sub, that is)! I have this questions and I got say that I really liked post #116 (on the batteries) because as an electrical engineer these matters are really interesting to me. Tks! Great thread! |
SSGSlick :yeah::yeah::up: 5 thumbs up.
Those are some outstanding pics, both in content and quality. Thanks for posting. Magic |
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@LukeFF
Thanks man! Very nice site. The page you lead me to contained much more information that I could think of. That picture showing a sub cutaway with all of its engines is, for me, very clarifying. Very good! :up: |
SSGSlick
Thanks for the pics! They are very nice. They sure give the dimension of the sheer size of the engines room. No wonder Fleet Boast were much larger than U-Boats. And 4 V16 Engines? That's a lot of horsepower. |
Mundane day by day questions
Bear with me, but since I never even got near a real sub, I have this very mundane questions that are boggin me for a while .
1) Bathrooms: Yeah, you read it right: bathrooms ;). I saw a documentary on modern nuclear subs and it said that there are only one or two for the entire crew (expect captains have their own) and baths are a luxury. Although modern subs crew is shown most of time with their uniforms nice and clean, the pictures from WWII show exactly the opposite. So I imagine that laundry too was out of question and maybe today it still is. (in a way, a sub is a single man's way of life dream come true...:D) 2) Sleep: I read some posts ago that the shifts were 4 on - 8 off. But even so, sleep was a very rare commodity: why is that? From the sim, it takes long and boring hours to get to the area of operations and looking out for convoys. Not to mention that during the day some skippers maintained the sub submerged to avoid air patrols. From what I know, modern subs crews spend most of the time studying and training, because promotions and graduatios take part while the boat is underway. And what about during the WWII and Cold War? 3) Potable water: again, modern subs use sea water, dessanilize it and use it to give current water. Or am i wrong? And how it was on WWII? 4) CO2 scrubbers: in the WWII they weren't used on subs. But after it? In the 50's and 60's? Did they suffer with the same issue of acumulating CO2? Well that's it. Thanks for your patience. P.S.: As a side note, it can be noted that sub naval warfare may have contributed to the U.S. space program in more ways than not. I wonder if it is why NASA would prefer armed forces officers for their crews. |
4 × General Motors Model 16-248 V16 diesel engines (total of 5400 brake horsepower) driving electrical generators capable of 4 Megawatts
2 × 126-cell Sargo batteries 4 × high-speed General Electric electric motors with reduction gears Each of those 4 diesels weigh in at over 42 thousand pounds ..21 tons each! During her seven combat patrols those beasts drank more than a million gallons of diesel! These babies actually still run ! There's actually a fifth engine, buit it runs the house and is not tied to the propulsion or charging system ... The guys that maintain her acquired 2 additional engines form the Stingray (SS186) and will use to refurb and maintain the Cod's powerplant ... there's no batteries on board, just ballast to make up for the weight. http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/w.../USSCOD803.jpg http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/w.../USSCOD813.jpg http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/w.../USSCOD683.jpg http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/w.../USSCOD686.jpg About 40 more pics from last spring ... http://s705.photobucket.com/albums/ww56/SSGSlick/cod/ Cod is the only remaining fleet sub that hasn't had her pressure hull breached to install stairs or ramps for visitors, in theory she could still submerge if you could crew her,that and you couldn't get much of the boat underwater as Erie is way too shallow, in most places the sail would be fully out of the water .. If you're ever within visiting distance, the Cod is worth the trip .. the last time I was aboard it was like a Wednesday afternoon and there was nobody else there .. it was pretty cool being the only parson aboard .. one of the guys that still volunteers on the boat was on her when she rescued the grounded Dutch submarine O-19 .. he's interesting to talk to as he had been underway on her, although not on combat patrol. Enjoy .. TC |
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Anyway, Luke you are very nearly correct. The object on the left is a voice tube. It would normally have been used to communicate rudder and speed orders to the helmsman that was stationed at the surface steering station on the navigation bridge, immediately below the main bridge. The problem here is that the surface steering station, along with the entire covered nav bridge has already been removed in this photo! This was part of the effort to reduce the boats' silhouette. The tube would not have been used to speak to the helmsman inside the conning tower or control room because the tube would have to penetrate the pressure hull and thus would have to be watertight and pressure proof. This tube is obviously not closed or sealed so the only thing I can think of is that it is a leftover from the original installation, were it would have been completely outside of the pressure hull. The item in the center is actually an early model Target Bearing Transmitter (TBT)! This was used in conjunction with a set of standard 7x50 binoculars that were attached to the mount on the top. The binoculars were unclipped and taken below before you dived. I am not entirely sure, but I believe the object on the far right is an early model "squawkbox", a combination microphone and speaker used to communicate orders to the conning tower and control room. It was pressure proof and was usually activated by pushing down a switch on the side. I have not seen one of this style before. Later models were much smaller and round. |
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The USN fleet boats (with a few minor exceptions) used Electric Drive. That is, the engines were not connected to the propeller shaft in any way. They only drove generators. Electricity created by the gens would be sent to the motors attached to the shaft. Alternately, you could charge the battery by using a portion of the generated electricity to charge the battery (see the 2nd paragraph of post #352). Once again, anytime you charged batteries, it had a negative impact on speed. This is indeed modeled incorrectly in the game. The RFB mod may have corrected this. LukeFF?? Interestingly, the USN experimented with tandem drive engines in the early 1920's in the G and T class boats. They took two engines and connected them together at the crank shaft, sometimes with a clutch and sometimes without. This was a well intentioned attempt to greatly increase shaft horsepower, but it was a complete failure. The mechanical/manual control systems of the time were unable to precisely match the speeds between the two engines. Even a small mis-match would result in bad, sometimes violent vibrations that would break crankshafts and engine mounts and eventually destroy the engines. EDIT: check out this link: http://www.fleetsubmarine.com/propulsion.html It gives a pretty good overview of submarine propulsion. |
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I will tackle this in a series of posts. USN fleet boats had four toilets (properly called heads) in the boat. The first one was in the forward torpedo room and was intended for use by the officers (but was routinely used by the enlisted as well). Two more were placed side by side in separate stalls on the starboard side just aft of crew's berthing. The fourth was usually in the aft port corner of the maneuvering room. These toilets were situated directly above a tank called a sanitary tank. After making your "deposit" you flushed the bowl by pushing down on a lever on your right. This opened a ball valve in the bottom of the bowl that allowed the contents to fall into the sanitary tank. You would then open up a valve and flush a little sea water through the bowl. Next, shut the ball valve and allow the bowl to partially refill before shutting the flushing valve. Obviously, sooner or later the sanitary tank fills up. To empty it you start off by securing the toilet (why will be explained shortly), then you go around and shut a valve on every drain line that empties into the tank. Once this is done, air is bled into the tank, pressurizing it (the amount of pressure varies depending on how deep you are). Once pressurized, you open a valve at the bottom of the tank and the contents are blown over the side in a nasty liquified brown ooze. When empty, you close the overboard valve and carefully vent off the pressure from the tank. If you are surfaced the pressure would obviously get vented to the outside. However, if submerged you have no place to go with the pressure except inside the boat. This has a very nasty impact on the air you are breathing, to put it mildly. After venting all the pressure off the tank you open all the drain valves and put the heads back in service. Voila! Now here is were it gets interesting! Several problems can potentially arise during this procedure. First, flushing water is sea water that comes obviously from outside. It will be under the same pressure as what the outside is. When on the surface, the valve opens easily and the water runs into the bowl in a nice leasurely stream, no problem. Once submerged the back pressure on the valve makes it increasingly harder to open. Just cracking it open at 150 feet and the water rushes into the bowl in a mad torrent. At test depth you run the very real possibility of flooding the boat if you are not extremely careful. Secondly, during the blowing procedure you have pressurized the tank with air. If someone enters the head and uses the toilet during this time, as soon as he opens the ball valve under the bowl the contents of the tank will follow the path of least resistance and come up through the ball valve and into the head! Imagine a Mt. Vesuvius of crap! The unfortunate sailor who made this mistake will exit the head covered head to toe with liquified human excrement. Words can not describe how incredibly nasty this is. Also, if you fail to fully close every drain valve, the contents will force their way up the drain lines and into every sink they service. Do this in the captain's cabin and you will have a very bad day! :D The Kleinschmidt stills onboard the fleet boats were a tremendous advance over the earlier evaporators. When new and properly serviced they actually produced an excess of fresh water. This allowed for normal use of fresh water for cooking, cleaning, washing, showering, and the batteries. This was a tremendous technological advance for our boats and was one of the prime factors that made 60-80 day patrols in the warm Pacific doable and tolerable for the crews. There was even a washing machine in the crew's head in the after battery! This was completely unheard of in other country's boats. However, the Kleinschmidt stills were notoriously cranky and often times did not produce as much water as was wanted. The majority of this had to go to the batteries so the first thing that got cut out was showers and the washing machine. Even still, the relative abundance of fresh water was a real morale booster for the crew and went a long way to keep them healthy and ready to fight. |
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There was no way at the time of replenishing oxygen once it had been used up. You could bleed some air into the boat from the air banks, but the quality of this air was not the greatest and you needed it to get to the surface. It also increased the pressure in the boat and this had a negative effect on the crew. The only practical way of replenishing the air was to surface, open the hatches and main induction, light off an engine and draw fresh air into the boat. Quote:
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Davey,
You are the greatest! Thank you very much for your answers. Amazing. Just amazed me. I thought my questions were too mundane to be answered. But seeing that a simple thing as going to the bathroom, in a sub, can get very complicated surprised me. Now I can see why the crew didn't get to sleep much, because a "simple" thing as cleaning a sanitary tank could take a lot of operations that needed to be learned and trained well. About the potable water, another interesting answer. Never thought of having water could be a morale booster. I think in situations like these you give thanks for the simplest of the things. Regarding the engines and motors, it is nice to know that in a sub you have a very similar operation to what is done in locomotives. Very interesting to see the difference of philosofies of propulsion systems between Americans and Germans. It seems to me that the American system is more reliable, less prone to breakdowns and would allow for a multitude of alternatives in case an engine was damaged or offline for maintenance. Also, I read post #352 on the motors and recharging the batteries. It is a shame that the game does not simulated this condition, of having the boats speed coming up as the batteries got recharged. Then, that button to turn-off recharge would be useful (mods anyoone?). And finally, I got say that I apreciatted that you took your time to even answer the side note about NASA that i put there. It is interesting to know that Cernan, Lovell, Schirra and Shepard were all naval aviators, but sadly, no submariner, until the distinctive gentlemen you mentioned there. Yet again, thanks! Good to have you around! P.S.: From the link you game me: "Some indication of the amount of power consumed by these motors was the necessity to include water cooling systems to keep the operating temperatures within safe limits. The high speed type motors (used with a reduction gear) were rated at 1370 horsepower and ran at 1300 rpm, pulling 2600 amps at 415 volts. (By way of comparison, an automobile starter motor runs on 12 volts at a maximum draw of around 45 amps.)" I got say, as an electrical engineer, that is, really a lot! |
Officer's head ..
http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/w...od/offhead.jpg Christmas tree .... http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/w...k/cod/tree.jpg Conning Tower ... http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/w...cod/contwr.jpg Looking forward to bow .. standing on pressure hull below deck .. I wonder if the three CO2 tanks correspond to 3 starboard fwd tubes ? http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/w...ck/cod/bow.jpg |
Great pictures!!!
It gives an good idea of which is which in the game. |
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How was battery charging typically handled on USN fleet subs? If the boat was cruising (i.e., not needing to run at high speeds) were, say, a pair of diesels used to charge the batteries while the other pair were used to propel the sub? From the link I posted (http://www.hnsa.org/doc/fleetsub/diesel/chap1.htm#1D), it also says the auxiliary engine could also be used to charge the batteries. |
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Lets say it is early in the war and you are transiting to your patrol area. Doctrine at that time called for submerged transits during the day and surfaced at night. After being down all day the battery was pretty well drained. After surfacing you would come up on all four engines and start a full load battery charge. Your diesels would be pounding away like rock crushers, but you may only be making about 6 knots in speed. As the battery charged up (this would take several hours in this case) more and more current can be drawn off for propulsion and your speed increases gradually. Now lets say that just as dawn breaks you encounter a convoy of three ships escorted by a couple of cans. You make an end around, submerge, and knock off a couple of maru's. The cans are moderately competent and keep you down for an hour or two. Afterwards, you pop up and set off in a chase for the last ship. You started off with a full battery and now might be down to a half charge. You would probably come up on all four engines again, but proceed at three engine speed and put the fourth on the charge. You would have to balance tactical considerations (i.e. the need for speed) against the practical need to charge a partially depleted battery. Later in the war as doctrine evolved, boats were making most of the transit to station on the surface. Your battery never really gets drawn down, but there is always a slight drain on it. Once arriving on station you could goof around waiting for a contact on two engines (speed not really a factor here) and keep a "running charge" going in order to keep the battery charged up. Now lets say you needed the speed but still needed to do a partial charge. You could put all four engines on line, but charge the battery using the auxiliary engine (sometimes called the "dinky"). The dinky doesnt produce a lot of power, but it is sufficient for a slow speed transit or a slow charge. See what I am getting at? There were many different combinations of propulsion vs. charging and how you did it would be entirely dependent on the circumstances at the time. |
Just want to say this is my favorite thread on subsim.
Always something interesting to read here. Very informative and interesting. Thanks for taking the time to do this DaveyJ576 :up: |
It would want to make the following question: If as a result of the combat some battery were broken and the electrolytes would be mixed with salt water and would take place feared; gas of cloro; , that system of gas extraction used? or if so how they avoided the gas?
Thanks |
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