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-   -   Malaysia airlines B777 missing (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=211812)

Aktungbby 03-17-14 06:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenRivet (Post 2187128)
Pilot suicide by airplane eh?
turn the transponder off? no, why do that?
We have none of those indicators, so i think pilot suicide is not likely.
Those two pilots were attacked, and during the struggle one of them attempted to turn back, the pilots died defending the flight deck and protecting their passengers, and whoever ultimately took over the plane had just enough knowledge to keep it aloft. they became lost and disoriented while trying to find their way to somewhere, such as a target, they exhausted the fuel and crashed into the sea way off course.
Quote:
They concluded that when co-pilot Gameel El-Batouty found himself alone on the flight deck, he switched off the auto-pilot, pointed the plane downward, and calmly repeated the phrase "I rely on God" over and over, 11 times in total.
Well, one did turn off the transponder and plunge his aircraft into the sea-so nothing new here. I like your counter scenario as to a defense of the cockpit except that the transponder was turned off ahead of the Co-pilot's saying "good night"... so not likely. You and I are pilot experienced-logic oriented persons; assuming the other bugger is also an intelligent 'creature of logic' is a major error of our usual assumptions...which, sadly, I've outgrown. Always contemplate a worst case scenario; ie if I can think of it, someone else probably already has. Or as Von C. puts it: 'Never count on your opponent doing what your brilliant (logical) plan calls for him to do...' Yamamoto's mistake at Midway.

Mr Quatro 03-17-14 06:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aktungbby
Well, one did turn off the transponder and plunge his aircraft into the sea-so nothing new here. I like your counter scenario as to a defense of the cockpit except that the transponder was turned off ahead of the Co-pilot's saying "good night"...
That point is not yet proven they don't know when the ACARS system was turned off they only know that it didn't report the position when it was suppose to. Another Malaysian airline reporting problem

Aktungbby 03-17-14 07:14 PM
correction
 
^YUP! Apology; I got that reversed:doh: by two minutes: The ACARS was turned off after 1:07; "Good night" was uttered at 1:19 and the transponder switched off at 1:21. All told, a fourteen minute period...
Quote:
For days, we've been talking about the last transponder signal the plane sent. And now it appears another system that sends data about the plane, the Aircraft Communications Addressing and Reporting System, was shut off, too. Authorities say the last transmission from that system came early in the flight, at 1:07 a.m. But they say they don't know exactly when the system was shut down, as the next transmission wasn't due until 1:37 a.m. Someone inside the cockpit, believed to be the co-pilot, made the plane's last verbal communication with air traffic controllers at 1:19 a.m., saying, "All right, good night." The transponder was then switched off at 1:21 a.m., authorities say, and all civilian radar lost contact with the plane altogether about 1:30 a.m. Military radar last detected the plane at 2:15 a.m. off Malaysia's west coast, hundreds of miles off course. And at 8:11 a.m., more than seven hours after takeoff, a satellite made the last electronic connection, known as a "handshake," with the plane.

TarJak 03-17-14 07:14 PM
The Malaysians are now claiming the last words from the cockpit came from the co-pilot: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-1...-plane/5327064

Theories etc are all we have so whilst its natural for people to speculate, until we know it's pretty pointless.

fireftr18 03-17-14 07:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeonSamurai (Post 2187147)
I would be more cautious in talking about a topic (suicide) that I do not think you know a whole lot about.

Trying to mask a suicide attempt is not all that uncommon. A common reason is so that the person's family does not think it was suicide, that it was just an accident. There also may be religious reasoning behind what they do, such as not shaming their family further. It is also not at all uncommon for the person attempting suicide not to consider the potential harm to others, they are often totally stuck within themselves. Also of course there is the possibility of the person wanting to take revenge on everyone else for perceived harm to the individual by other groups or society.

Also your other statement about men and suicide is equally erroneous (though relationships can be a factor in a suicide, it is more often just a last straw). It is considerably harder to detect suicidal ideation than you think. Most people tend to be completely oblivious to the warning signs, and even for us professionals, assessing a person's risk for suicide is a challenge. The ones that are most likely to succeed are also the ones that do not give out any warning signs, as they do not want to be rescued or stopped. I cannot count the number of parents I have met that had absolutely no idea their son or daughter was at risk, or even depressed.
To add to your comments. In my experience, suicide is a very private, secret act. I have seen some make a small show of it, but they were extremely rare.
Suicide is an extremely selfish act of complete destitute desperation. I can't even imagine being in such a state of mind. When a person is willing to end his or her own life, without considering others, there is no logic.

Admiral Halsey 03-17-14 08:40 PM
I'm not buying the suicide theory. If he really wanted to do that why turn back and keep flying the thing for 6+ hours instead of just nosing the plane straight into the water? My own personal theory is that Iran bought of the co-pilot and after he somehow knocked out the passengers.(Probably by depressurizing the plane somehow) he landed the plane in a Kazakhstan desert to meet with Iranians. Afterwards they refueled the plane and flew it to Iran. Then after studying the plane inside and out they load a couple of nukes onto the thing and fly it straight towards Israel.

GoldenRivet 03-18-14 12:46 AM
I think we are at a point - that soon we should consider there is a very real possibility, assuming the aircraft did indeed crash, that virtually nothing of the aircraft may be located.

Eventually, a bank of overhead bins or seat cushions something of the sort may wash ashore in India or Australia perhaps... Possibly a year or even longer from now. But there comes a point in a search and recovery operation such as this where the search is eventually scaled down until there is no more search operation to speak of.

The search for Amelia Earhart lasted a couple of weeks. That mystery looms still today.

Admiral Halsey 03-18-14 12:57 AM
I'm still not buying the theory it crashed in the Indian Ocean. It just makes no sense if you think about it. If the pilot wanted to commit suicide he could've just crashed the plane 10 minutes after take off. Why take all this time to fly the plane for another 7+ hours just to try and make it harder to find the wreckage after you've killed yourself? Unless the plane was also carrying something or someone we don't know about it doesn't make a lick of sense.

GoldenRivet 03-18-14 01:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral Halsey (Post 2187219)
I'm still not buying the theory it crashed in the Indian Ocean. It just makes no sense if you think about it. If the pilot wanted to commit suicide he could've just crashed the plane 10 minutes after take off. Why take all this time to fly the plane for another 7+ hours just to try and make it harder to find the wreckage after you've killed yourself? Unless the plane was also carrying something or someone we don't know about it doesn't make a lick of sense.
Perhaps, in the interest of vanity the suicidal person just wanted to go down in history. Added to the list of great un solved aviation mysteries.

"They were never seen or heard from again" mixed with a ton if conspiracy theories and head scratching. People will remember this forever

CCIP 03-18-14 02:12 AM
The other point to make here is that things don't always have to make sense. Suicide and terrorism are not very sensible things in any way, but people still find warped justifications for them and carry them out.

GoldenRivet 03-18-14 02:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CCIP (Post 2187231)
The other point to make here is that things don't always have to make sense. Suicide and terrorism are not very sensible things in any way, but people still find warped justifications for them and carry them out.
While true... It won't stop people from asking why.

Side note

I recall a maintenance function on the cockpit voice recorder that would allow the CVR tape to be erased. This was accessible from the cockpit on the few aircraft is flown that had a CVR.

Would be a shame if the individuals final act were to erase the CVR.

Of course you'd still have the FDR.

CCIP 03-18-14 02:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenRivet (Post 2187233)
While true... It won't stop people from asking why.

Side note

I recall a maintenance function on the cockpit voice recorder that would allow the CVR tape to be erased. This was accessible from the cockpit on the few aircraft is flown that had a CVR.

Would be a shame if the individuals final act were to erase the CVR.

Of course you'd still have the FDR.
yeah, I can't remember exactly now, but I believe exactly that was done in at least one incident before, where someone on board intentionally disabled the CVR.

Flamebatter90 03-18-14 02:59 AM
I guess it depends of the plane, but I know some CVR systems do have an erase switch, which only works if the plane is on the ground.

GoldenRivet 03-18-14 03:03 AM
Now that i look back on it... the CVR panel had a "Test" button (black) and an "erase" button (red) a simple "VU indicator" and an auxiliary headset plug.

The erase button would only function in so far as to erase the test recording if any.

Ie. you press and hold the test button and speak "testing one two three testing" and if the little VU indicator moved it meant it was recording normally. then you would press erase and only that "test" layer would be affected.

All of the permanent functions of the CVR could not be erased from the cockpit interface and would require removal of the CVR unit itself from somewhere in the tail.

I had to do some thinking back a long ways, but thats all that was that i was recalling. In that regards, i do not think there is any way to erase the CVR from the cockpit other than to unplug any and all headsets and smash the CVR microphone(s) on the overhead panel to pieces.

TarJak 03-18-14 05:01 AM
Onthe Airbus A318/19/20/21 the pilot can erase the CVR. The following conditions must be met:
  • The aircraft is on the ground, and
  • The parking brake is on
Pressing the CVR ERASE pb for 2 seconds will then erase the tape. The Airbus CVR records the previous 2 hours.

On the Boeing 777 the same conditions must be met but you need to hold the erase button down for 10 seconds.

Of course doing so would also erase your job and maybe also your licence!


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