Didn't I say one should not be surprised?

LINK: Snowden: "NSA in bed with the Germans"

And it explains why the German government is so very quite and mild in criticising the Americans.

I personally strongly believe in an action principle based on reciprocity. The German government treats our people like enemies, and the US government treats us as enemies. Enemies that we are being treated as we therefore should turn against both and send them to hell.

Its all rotten, stinking mess, ideal basis for evergrowing corruption and monopolism, and gropwing totalitarianism. You cannot have both, state and governments, AND freedom. You have to make a choice. The first guarantees the destruction of freedom, the latter holds the risk of failing in securing freedom. I chose the chance despite the risks, and decide against guaranteed subjugation and slavery. A small or uncertain chance is more than no chance at all.

Yup! Like we do with speed limit enforcement, inspections of food manufacturers, controlling suspects for drug posession, check ups for driving drunk, controlling weapons trade by controlling weapons traders...

It's a matter of adequacy.
Terror is latin "to scare", "to daunt", "to intimidate".
Don't fight terror with terror. Don't become what you want to fight. Don't terrorize those you say you want to protect from terror.


It's a fair game you describe, neighbour. I watch you too. I have a curtain to keep your eyes out of my bedroom as you have one. I trust you to be a normal person, until I observe something strange.

We are under fair social control. No problem.

But would you consider it strange, if I hire five guys to observe you and your family 24/7? They follow you to work and check your mail. They watch you eating and reading, noting every single bit of information and report it to me. They film you while drinking a beer and while having fun with your wife - documenting some strange practices. How about that?

I don't want a group of invisible black suits noting our behaviour, reporting... - you know it.


Your last question? I know you'll insist on an answer. ;)

It's the job of the police. They try to care for our security.
But we don't have a police officer for every citizen to ensure our well behaviour and I think that's ok.
You - my neighbour - are entitled to report any suspicious behaviour on my side to the police, to let them or a prosecutor decide if any measures are to be taken.
This is police state enough.

Our privacy is our only resort of a kind of - "freedom". Do you want us to be totally enslaved?
We are said to be free, but that's nonsense. We are phlegmatic dreamers caught in our daily routine.
Who tries to move will feel the chains.

Aye that :)

The authorities not even show therye face about this it seems, what, is because is a president indian looking from south america and he don't deserve respect? maybe they can brake international law from time to time if is really needed, they are not going to do it again for a while now anyway.

If the vienna convention law about flights is like the Bolivian minister said, what happens now?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3_1L4gOEw8

Thank you.

Yes, I would consider it strange. I would consider it illegal. I have to ask more questions though, if you don't mind. Is this being done to you right now? Is there any reason why this would be taking place? Is there any way that you can confirm that it is being done? Is it being done to all the citizens where you live? Can anyone say for sure that they are being watched? I don't know where you live, but if all this is true, then, yes you have a problem. And my sympathy.

I live on the east coast of Canada. I am almost certain that this is not being done to me. I can't say for sure, but if it is, I guess they're wasting their time.

To a certain extent that is right. It is the role of local police forces to protect people and property. I doubt very much though that local police forces have the training or the means to detect and track terrorists. Most countries have organizations to do just that. My guess is that these people are using every means possible to prevent the citizens of their countries from being harmed by people who would like to do just that. Some people don't care for that kind of 'protection', but others are probably grateful that they have been spared. The 40,000 people who attended the Canada Day celebration at the British Columbia Legislature in Victoria are likely amongst that group. I know that if I had been there with my family, I would be very grateful.

Depends on what you consider freedom to be. Depends on how you think you are enslaved. I think that those are questions with an almost unlimited number of answers.

Intelligence , police, etc. need to do their job focused in some sort of objective, not see and know everyone bussiness. Anyway even if the CIA have a total survelliance do you think is going to help the government to make better decisions? no.

You would consider my neighbourhood surveillance on you to be illegal. :up:
Why do you consider the surveillance of the state apparatus on you to be legal?
Did you vote for this? Did you think carefully about the consequences? Or do you support it, because you're in fear for your life or the lives of your beloved ones? Fear is a bad advisor.

Your state is collecting all the information about you - over years - to create a profile stating your fears, your dreams, your political, sexual or consume preferences, your health state, your location, your phone number, your friends and networks, your job, income and credit worthiness, your intellectual niveau, your potential to think on your own, your hobbies etc.
This profile enables them to sort you and to predict your intentions and actions.
It enables them to isolate you, to discredit you, to horrify you, to ruin your life.
It enables them to control you, your perception and your motivation.

They do it on a national or ideological (western) level right now, but they want to evolve.

Google is able to show you personalized advertising, based on their collection of your interests - their profile of you.

Where is the difference between advertising and other kind of information?
Personalized political information to motivate you on a personal level to act, to support, to attack, to oppose, to relax, to fear...
It's a matter of available data and control.

Fear is a bad advisor they say.

Your communication and behaviour protocol is saved. If not by your own Canadian institutions - because it would be against the law to spy on Canadian citizens for your authorities - then by the foreign intelligence services of the other four big eyes (US, GB, Canada, Australia, New Zealand)
http://www.news.com.au/technology/uk...-1226667900434

They exchange their knowledge - their data - and don't break directly the national law of all participating members. Clever uh?

Are we spied on? Yes! You in Canada or me in Europe - it doesn't matter. Our data is collected.
Sorry for any desillusion on your side.

They fear the internet, because it is the tool for us slaves to communicate beside the controlled communication - this interpreted news - approved by our masters.
Imagine the slaves want to change the masters system. And someone offers to identify the ringleaders - the real ones and the potential ones, where they live and how to find them.
How to discredit them, what secrets they have, how to place a corpse into their basements - or a child pornography picture on their computers - simply how to ruin their lives.
Or even where to find the best spot to get totally rid of them. After work they like jogging in the park...

All necessary information is gathered and saved and only waits for examination.

Remember - the politicians are not our masters. They are foremen controlled by our master. They fear our masters classical media, because the media is the masters tool to control the foremen too. They are bought or dependant and the master knows their black spots on their apparent shiny white vests.

Our masters fear us slaves to become smart, because we will start to challenge his domination. It happened before and our master is well aware of this. But we slaves are not educated enough in relevant numbers to free ourselves right now.

The Arabian slaves are a step further it seems. They have additional motivation (hunger, inflation, sort of political oppression).
But they don't fight their masters, they fight their elected foremen. The masters may have been unhappy with the new foremen and may have cared for discontent amongst the slaves.
At least our masters see the new slaves communication in action.

The police forces are a masters tool to protect his property and to rule and regulate us slaves. They are entitled to keep the status quo by all means. Enslaved slaves and dominant masters - under the masters law.
This law is not neutral.
"In its majestic equality, the law forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets, and steal bread." Anatole France

And the masters still deal with the laws and regulations to their own liking.
You shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not desire anything that is you neighbour's. But if the master feels to kill, steal or desire some neighbours property he sends some slaves to fight, kill and die for. If a slave tries to flee this action, because he believes it's wrong to kill, he will be shot by some masters tools. Funny uh?

If our masters wouldn't send slaves to kill some other masters and their slaves, there would be no terror to be feared at our shacks. Live and let live. But our masters greed is a huge motivator...

It's all about control and regaining control.
It's all about who is enabled to tell who "the truth".

I didn't say it was. I think what I am saying is that the states surveillance of potential mass murderers is. Big difference.

It hardly matters if I support it or not. They are going to do it anyway. Have you been able to stop them? If not, why not. I get the feeling that you think I am in favour of unrestricted surveillance by governments. I am not. I would simply ask, what do you think you can do about it?

How I feel about the whole situation is this.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...3&postcount=10

Thank you Oberon, I could not have said it any better. Especially the last line.

For the most part man has paid a price for technology. Cars, trucks and planes make life easier but they are polluting our planet. We can kill much more effectively and from much greater distances than in the past. So it is with the cyber world. There is a price to pay. You posted this quote by Brzezinski, made more than 40 years ago.

Why so surprised when it is coming true.

If someone wants to watch me, profile me, whatever. Let them. I could care less. I haven't lost any sleep over it yet. My question to you is are you willing to give up your part of cyberspace to feel safe. No internet connection, no smart phone, nothing. It's an easy way out. Stay in your home, draw the curtains.

Fear can lead to unreasonable paranoia. I'm not interested in that game. I won't play it.

I agree with you here but not completely, Brzesinski's quote is the unlikely extreme, the black of the black and white false dilemma. The problems that will prevent this scenario being absolutely true are the potential inaccurate profiles that can not be avoided as there is no way of knowing (digitally speaking) that it is actually me making those calls or posting on forums etc. Phones are shared, computers are shared. People like me purposely put humorous (to me at least) fiction where websites ask for personal information if allowed, or none at all. I encourage everyone I meet or know to not put any more personal information than is absolutely necessary into any type of device, and I am done with smartphones, what's the point? (I try to get people to see this too)

The unlikely white extreme? well that's a few thousand years ago now I think.

And yes there is nothing I actually need to have a smartphone nor networked computer in my house for, should things really start evolving along those blackened lines. I like single player games :D and I don't watch TV :hmph:

In the paranoid world (that it appears some posting here may inhabit) once under surveillance they [insert government, corporation or secret cabal of your choice] will have your voice characteristics on digitized database and will instantly identify the person on the phone, and your syntax and typing style on the keyboard will also be analyzed. No escaping Big Brother.:/\\k:

I'm really disappointed to learn that you accept your masters voice, his whip and his status.
You are obedient and submissive, you have arranged yourself with the situation and you can't even think of a possibility to change it. You have been indoctrinated for too long without understanding you are indoctrinated. Your master has told you you are free and special, you live the dream, you would be a fool if you would want to change anything and that the majotity is with this system. You feel helpless and without a choice.

Please check the East German history for their masters dealings, for the surveillance and the sissors it created in their brains. Learn how they managed to overcome the system.

You may be aware of the GESTAPO, this secret police force of the Third Reich. They were totally legal within the system, they only did their job and they were adorable efficient. They observed the people for certain attributes and came after them.

Hitler (one of the masters of that system) and his friends ordered the attributes to be searched for. It was not the peoples choice to check these attributes for legality. Everything was declared secret.

But the hunt for the jews was public. They were this terroristic, communistic, subversive enemy trying to destroy the lovingly, noble and bright German way of living.
The media was totally controlled by the government, no critical articles were possible.
The perception of the truth was only through the Nazi controlled eyes.

The western world is running in the same trap the Germans did before, initiated, protected and led by the US this time.
Fascism is defined by its inventor Mussolini as the fusion of state and big capital.
Nazi-Germany, Fascist-Italy or Spain were commanded by politicians addicted to public attention. The economy, the big capitalists around the globe, made some nice money but they were not taking charge.

Today this neo-fascistic szenario isn't led by politicians, it is led by the big capital.
They conquered the command by money, influence and lobbyism.
They screw out the poiliticians and the publics consent with a mixture of fear, bribe, control over the media, threats of the loss of jobs etc.
They stay in the dark, they try to hide undetected behind the politicians.
They are not interested in public attention.
They are the puppet masters who control the politicians, the media and the peoples perception. They control our motivation to act for or against their system.

If we are not willing to recognize and change this system - the danger it breeds for all of us - there is no noble western army of the free left to help us get rid of this system.
We will be enslaved forever und under control of these capitalist masters who sort us, manipulate us and silence us they think fit.

We need an act of cognition. We need better education and we urgently need to learn from history. We must fight this slow and hidden abolition of our rights - or better privileges. We must solidarize and gain confidence to be able to overcome this tyranny of the puppet masters.

If we fail, maybe the Chinese have to be the next bright light of freedom and justice.
They may free us by force, bombs and missiles and teach us to be aware of the signs of any puppet masters and their dark deeds.
Or they show us that cooperation on eye level is the way to go. Cooperation is the key to evolution.

My Master is the wind, and my Mistress is the sea. I have the freedom to sail by their grace; I beseech them in the storm and thank them in the calm. All I ask is a safe anchorage, a bottle of rum, and a hammock under starlight. Arrgh! :arrgh!:

:up:

I can't change my situation, I'm pawn in the hands of nature - my master.
I've learned to love what I do - my master let's me work for him.
I am free to act under natures control - my masters control.
I ask servile for a change under mistreatment - please don't hurt me, master. I'll obey.
I am relaxed while everything seems to be straight - thank you master, great job you do.
(I'm satisfied with my choice of breakfast cereals - I'm happy my master cares for my survival.)
Edit: I'm easily to be satisfied: just a dry place to sleep, some alcohol to ease my pain and the freedom to dream of a better world is way enough.