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-   SH4 Mods Workshop (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/forumdisplay.php?f=219)
-   -   All members read this (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=138774)

Dowly 07-05-08 01:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBrauerHour
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dowly
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBrauerHour
I have been playing WWIIOL for a while.
Heeey! Just subscribed for 3 months this week on WWIIOL. :up: The nick's Dowly and you an find me mostly on the German side as an pilot. :yep:
Hey I'll look for you. My gamename is juengere.
Rgr that. Hope to see you there. :rock:

Rockin Robbins 07-05-08 02:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kpt. Lehmann
Monolith has been a long-time instigator of anti-GWX sentiment and trolling. Though his comments are on occasion irritating... they are obviously driven by hate, so we largely discount anything he has to say.
To quote Ronald Reagan, "There you go again!" KH, you're better than that. I was not considering the personality of MONOLITH or his past history, but the good sense of what he had to say, which mirrored BBW and your own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kpt. Lehmann
Concerning Rockin Robbin's opportunistic thrusting and retreating... Meh. His attitude speaks for itself concerning GWX matters.

His words, (and indication of his attitude towards GWX) describing the logical progression of the Subsim.com news page and the related position of a GWX release announcement there as subsequent articles marched it down the page:
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...ann/14yx41.jpg
And it's still funny!

Many of the modders over at kickinbak were dragging their sorry posteriors through the gutter, saying "We're dead meat when GWX gets here.", "Yeah, they'll just kick us to the curb, why do we even mod?", and the infamous from an unnamed perpetrator, "Subsim is just biased toward U-Boats and GWX. They're bought and paid for." Then out came the new release of RFB and Operation Monsun. Subsim put them both up in the feature spot, and one other I think, bouncing GWX to the third or fourth position.

Feeling vindicated in my position that GWX has no power to kick anybody to the curb even if they wanted to, and rubbing their noses in their previous claim that GWX gets preferrential treatment, my post called attention to the fact that those modders did get fair exposure from Subsim. Note that I called GWX no bad names. I didn't reflect badly on the GWX product. I didn't characterize them as "hating" anything. It was a harmless, funny comment, showing the error of the kickinback pessimism.

A functional equivalent would have been "Hey guys, if Subsim hates you so much, what are you doing up there on top?" Instead I said it indirectly in a way that would not have been appropriate at Subsim but was perfectly appropriate for there.

Please refer back to my posts about the "nice fence." There is no opportunity here for me. Opportunity for what?:rotfl::rotfl:Thrusting and retreating? Sounds very interesting in the proper context. I'll take that up with my wife.:up: My attitude toward GWX is that it is installed on my SH3 game.

Just because I encourage the SH4 modders does not imply that I have any hatred toward GWX. I also encourage modders for the ATO, often against antipathy from PTO "enthusiasts."

Counseling response instead of reaction is not the same as being equivocal. After all, I have no power or responsibility either here or at kickinbak. My only tool is persuasion. I can be unclear. I can be wrong. But I won't be afraid to say what's on my mind. Any flak that generates is just the cost of doing business. I'll take any criticism into consideration and apologize where I'm wrong, learn and continue forward.

Kpt. Lehmann 07-05-08 02:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kpt. Lehmann
To the Moderators:

Now, before you close ranks and begin to defend brother AVG... I am going to say something drawn from numerous messages to myself, and teamspeak conversations concerning the same.

The following is true of not only the SH4 forums, but of the SH3 forums as well and drawn from MONTHS of activity.

We (The Grey Wolves Mod Team) have been asked many times to hold our fire and let the moderators police our threads.

We've given you every opportunity to be the police.

Apart from direct attention by Neal Stevens, and considerate responses on occasion by Hitman (who has limited availability and no cross-forum influence) we have witnessed that the usual response to complaints registered by GWX team regarding various issues, were met with anti-enthusiasm at best, and were viewed as simple whining, complaining, and nitpicking at worst.

We have respected Neal's wishes to let the police do the policing and the police FAILED.

By Neal's own statement on this thread... GWX rarely initiates conflict... (and we expect that we will be punished when we do) but when NOTHING HAPPENS as a result of legitimate complaints... we will finish the fight.... as we then have nothing to lose.

If an individual takes the time to write up a complaint and shows you where the harm was caused. It is a valid complaint.

Brushing it aside as you have done on a fairly regular basis, removes any respect or influence you may have with us.
The police failed? How about other respected members on this forum as failing to ignore the baiting? Both sides. How many times have I asked you and jimbuna to be stand up guys. 99% of the time you two are as most of the GWX crew are. The other 1% is when you are not. Unfortunte this 1% gets the focus. So please do not lay this all on the moderators and this a$$hole of impartial moderator lap. Legitimate complaints should come in PM or bad post button. This tool is open for all. You, the crew and SH4 modders are partial to blame. We as moderators are left to deal with it and apparently the root cause in your eyes. Nice set of rose colored glasses.
Obfuscate all you like. Your obvious bias, and misgiven sense that I somehow run this forum and/or Subsim.com (along with others like Monolith and Ducimus who have a long-standing axe to grind for me and/or GWX) stink of hate and disinterest in LISTENING to matters you find inconvenient.

Yes, the police failed.

You have chosen to brush aside concerns brought before you and as a result the GWX Mod Team has no confidence in your ability to act fairly. Indeed, you are generally viewed as useless by many of the senior members of the team.

Kpt. Lehmann 07-05-08 02:02 PM
Just a general observation in the midst of all the GWX and Kpt. Lehmann-bashing happening here.

It is entirely predictable to see the usual ranters again demanding universal respect but giving it selectively.

bigboywooly 07-05-08 02:04 PM
[quote=Carotio]But now that you brought up the theme of time and modding. Who are you modding for? Yourself or the community. If one mods for the community and chooses to release the work in the open, one should be prepared to spend time in answering questions how to alter this and alter that. Otherwise, just keep the mod to yourself as if it never existed. No one forces anyone to release mods either. Sorry for my sarcasm, but do you get my point? The time can be spend in a much more constructive manner if spend teaching rather than modding in secret, then release a full working product, which everybody then wants explained how to alter.

[quote]

Am actually modding for GWX AND the community
And by your own admission we DO spent time on support
Not so much time on how to alter this and that
As I dont see anywhere really

Only a few posts actually explain how to

Who taught YOU how to mod ?
Ah like most of us you figured it out
As I did
By reading the forums and searching for info
Most of it is out there
Even tutorials out there if people look
Even wrote a couple myself
Outdated now as nothad the time to redo
OK some of SH4 files differ to SH3 but a lot are very similar

And again tis all time
Even if you post a thread on how you did something you are still inundated with replies on how to take something a stage further or I cant get it to work etc

Kpt. Lehmann 07-05-08 02:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kpt. Lehmann
Monolith has been a long-time instigator of anti-GWX sentiment and trolling. Though his comments are on occasion irritating... they are obviously driven by hate, so we largely discount anything he has to say.
To quote Ronald Reagan, "There you go again!" KH, you're better than that. I was not considering the personality of MONOLITH or his past history, but the good sense of what he had to say, which mirrored BBW and your own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kpt. Lehmann
Concerning Rockin Robbin's opportunistic thrusting and retreating... Meh. His attitude speaks for itself concerning GWX matters.

His words, (and indication of his attitude towards GWX) describing the logical progression of the Subsim.com news page and the related position of a GWX release announcement there as subsequent articles marched it down the page:
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...ann/14yx41.jpg
And it's still funny!

Many of the modders over at kickinbak were dragging their sorry posteriors through the gutter, saying "We're dead meat when GWX gets here.", "Yeah, they'll just kick us to the curb, why do we even mod?", and the infamous from an unnamed perpetrator, "Subsim is just biased toward U-Boats and GWX. They're bought and paid for." Then out came the new release of RFB and Operation Monsun. Subsim put them both up in the feature spot, and one other I think, bouncing GWX to the third or fourth position.

Feeling vindicated in my position that GWX has no power to kick anybody to the curb even if they wanted to, and rubbing their noses in their previous claim that GWX gets preferrential treatment, my post called attention to the fact that those modders did get fair exposure from Subsim. Note that I called GWX no bad names. I didn't reflect badly on the GWX product. I didn't characterize them as "hating" anything. It was a harmless, funny comment, showing the error of the kickinback pessimism.

A functional equivalent would have been "Hey guys, if Subsim hates you so much, what are you doing up there on top?" Instead I said it indirectly in a way that would not have been appropriate at Subsim but was perfectly appropriate for there.

Please refer back to my posts about the "nice fence." There is no opportunity here for me. Opportunity for what?:rotfl::rotfl:Thrusting and retreating? Sounds very interesting in the proper context. I'll take that up with my wife.:up: My attitude toward GWX is that it is installed on my SH3 game.

Just because I encourage the SH4 modders does not imply that I have any hatred toward GWX. I also encourage modders for the ATO, often against antipathy from PTO "enthusiasts."

Counseling response instead of reaction is not the same as being equivocal. After all, I have no power or responsibility either here or at kickinbak. My only tool is persuasion. I can be unclear. I can be wrong. But I won't be afraid to say what's on my mind. Any flak that generates is just the cost of doing business. I'll take any criticism into consideration and apologize where I'm wrong, learn and continue forward.
The GWX Mod Team is not interested in 'kicking' anyone to the curb... but nor should they feel guilty or appologetic for being successful.... and nor should they feel guilty for operating within a setting that produces fine results. (ie: our private modding forums. Public development forums are simply too diffuse and unorganized to produce optimum results.)

Fear leads to anger.

Anger leads to hate.

Hate leads to harm and suffering.

Rocking Robbins, do not think for one moment that your subtle (and frequently baseless remarks... such as your accusation of mod theft by us) pokes and jabs are not recognized for what they are... your effort to deconstruct and demolish... driven by fear that we will engulf all.

Digital_Trucker 07-05-08 02:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dowly
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital_Trucker
Hey, I'm a tool-writer (a minor one at that). I can't conceive of a purpose for writing a tool and not sharing it. Tools are meant to be used (not just written for one's self).
This' the 3rd time this is explained on this thread. :p

Say, a modder needs a simple tool for use to help speed he's modding, he makes a very simple and basic tool and he can use it with no problem, because he made it and knows everything about it. Now, if he would release the simple and very basic tool to the community, it would start a 230 paged thread of questions "I cant get it to work!, How it works?, How to do that and that?"

What I mean, is that if a modder makes a VERY simple and basic tool just for himself to speed up the modding process, he shouldnt be obligated to share it with the community if he doesnt want to, for the simple reason that it would cause a huge flow of support requests.

It just wouldnt be worth it me thinks.

If you're going to quote me please don't take a tiny part of the answer to KLs question and attempt to tear it apart and "explain" to me again.

I perfectly well understand how you and others feel about sharing hard work and taking the time to help. There seem to be two schools of thought here. "What can I/we do to help" and "I/we don't have the time". You'll have to guess which I believe in.

Don't even apologize, I'm probably taking everything wrong again? :p

My apologies for trying to answer the mans question as to why I felt the way I did.

My apologies for feeling the way I do and for it not matching up with your views.

My apologies for making not making myself clear.

My apologies for not speaking every freaking language in the world so you can understand me (why can't we be having this conversation in German:p)

My apologies for making so many apologies.

Have I forgotten anything to apologize for?:rotfl:

AVGWarhawk 07-05-08 02:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kpt. Lehmann
Quote:
Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kpt. Lehmann
To the Moderators:

Now, before you close ranks and begin to defend brother AVG... I am going to say something drawn from numerous messages to myself, and teamspeak conversations concerning the same.

The following is true of not only the SH4 forums, but of the SH3 forums as well and drawn from MONTHS of activity.

We (The Grey Wolves Mod Team) have been asked many times to hold our fire and let the moderators police our threads.

We've given you every opportunity to be the police.

Apart from direct attention by Neal Stevens, and considerate responses on occasion by Hitman (who has limited availability and no cross-forum influence) we have witnessed that the usual response to complaints registered by GWX team regarding various issues, were met with anti-enthusiasm at best, and were viewed as simple whining, complaining, and nitpicking at worst.

We have respected Neal's wishes to let the police do the policing and the police FAILED.

By Neal's own statement on this thread... GWX rarely initiates conflict... (and we expect that we will be punished when we do) but when NOTHING HAPPENS as a result of legitimate complaints... we will finish the fight.... as we then have nothing to lose.

If an individual takes the time to write up a complaint and shows you where the harm was caused. It is a valid complaint.

Brushing it aside as you have done on a fairly regular basis, removes any respect or influence you may have with us.
The police failed? How about other respected members on this forum as failing to ignore the baiting? Both sides. How many times have I asked you and jimbuna to be stand up guys. 99% of the time you two are as most of the GWX crew are. The other 1% is when you are not. Unfortunte this 1% gets the focus. So please do not lay this all on the moderators and this a$$hole of impartial moderator lap. Legitimate complaints should come in PM or bad post button. This tool is open for all. You, the crew and SH4 modders are partial to blame. We as moderators are left to deal with it and apparently the root cause in your eyes. Nice set of rose colored glasses.
Obfuscate all you like. Your obvious bias, and misgiven sense that I somehow run this forum and/or Subsim.com (along with others like Monolith and Ducimus who have a long-standing axe to grind for me and/or GWX) stink of hate and disinterest in LISTENING to matters you find inconvenient.

Yes, the police failed.

You have chosen to brush aside concerns brought before you and as a result the GWX Mod Team has no confidence in your ability to act fairly. Indeed, you are generally viewed as useless by many of the senior members of the team.
There has never been one concern brought before me via PM with exception of a chat with jimbuna, ONCE. Zero from you. From what I recall we did not get much accomplished. Now as far as bias, comments (something about fleets and the Lithuanina navy) from you and pictures from others would indicate there is a bias with fleetboats(modders) as well. Why, because GWX live, breath, eat and mod uboats. Sounds reasonable and I suspect there would be a bias as well. Please do not deny a bias on your part as well as the crew. Responses with a bias would and are evident in some posts. I think your point on the biased issue is mute.

As far as the team having no confidence in me to act fairly, that is something they have to deal with. Life is not always fair. However, offer of the SH4 uboat forum with a moderator other than myself was on the table. I see Penelope thinks Tak would be good. I think so as well. Such a shame that I'm viewed as useless to the team, in the large scheme of things what the hell does it matter anyway? I'm not here to be your bud or be the team mascot. I'm hear to moderate and find resolutions to the best of my ability. Somehow you have a hard time understanding that.

As I observed and brought to the table before, the GWX team tactics in handling other forum members are atrocius to say the least. This is my problem with the team. We have gone over this before with several members who suffered the rath and for no good reason. But the team refuses to see this and everyone else is to blame. It would seem the team was being inconvienced from my requests as well. All I asked is being a leading members on the forums, the team has a responsiblity to act like adults, not take the bait. Alert a moderator! If you think I would not be fair, RDP is here. So, suck it up KL, there is a FAILURE from the GWX team as well. Take the innocence stance and put it away. The excuse that has been used to death is, "I defend my mates (ignore moderators while doing it)". "I will not sit by and let them bash me." I agree, hard not to do so, but alerting a moderator to close the thread and strike things from the thead, send the offender to the showers is the way to handle it.

Kpt. Lehmann 07-05-08 02:37 PM
Another note that could maybe result in something neat for Subsim.

I've spoken with a number of recognizeable people from Subsim over the last few years via TEAMSPEAK (realtime voice communication program) and have viewed the following strange/paradoxical/unbelievable comments (paraphrased) from those individuals...

"You know, when you talk with Kpt. Lehmann... it turns out he's a pretty reasonable guy."

Ducimus,
AVG_Warhawk,
and
Rockin' Robbins.

It seems you guys have rather short memories.

I am the same person I've always been... and I am still accessible. Jimbuna has posted the info here at Subsim publicly.

The GWX Mod Team has resolved numerous internal misunderstandings via Teamspeak. Maybe such a device could be made for Subsim.

For any interested, and outside real-life obligations, I'll speak to anyone who has the courage to ask and to use their own voice. (Bring a microphone to save us all a huge headache though if you do.)

Dowly 07-05-08 02:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital_Trucker
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dowly
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital_Trucker
Hey, I'm a tool-writer (a minor one at that). I can't conceive of a purpose for writing a tool and not sharing it. Tools are meant to be used (not just written for one's self).
This' the 3rd time this is explained on this thread. :p

Say, a modder needs a simple tool for use to help speed he's modding, he makes a very simple and basic tool and he can use it with no problem, because he made it and knows everything about it. Now, if he would release the simple and very basic tool to the community, it would start a 230 paged thread of questions "I cant get it to work!, How it works?, How to do that and that?"

What I mean, is that if a modder makes a VERY simple and basic tool just for himself to speed up the modding process, he shouldnt be obligated to share it with the community if he doesnt want to, for the simple reason that it would cause a huge flow of support requests.

It just wouldnt be worth it me thinks.

If you're going to quote me please don't take a tiny part of the answer to KLs question and attempt to tear it apart and "explain" to me again.

I perfectly well understand how you and others feel about sharing hard work and taking the time to help. There seem to be two schools of thought here. "What can I/we do to help" and "I/we don't have the time". You'll have to guess which I believe in.

Don't even apologize, I'm probably taking everything wrong again? :p

My apologies for trying to answer the mans question as to why I felt the way I did.

My apologies for feeling the way I do and for it not matching up with your views.

My apologies for making not making myself clear.

My apologies for not speaking every freaking language in the world so you can understand me (why can't we be having this conversation in German:p)

My apologies for making so many apologies.

Have I forgotten anything to apologize for?:rotfl:
Yup, you forgot to apologize for not using common sense. ;) I mean, really, think about it. A modder starts to do something, he goes by the 'trial & error' method most of the time. Let's say it takes him 4 days to get to the result he wants, that makes quite a lot of tries from which I could say in some cases 1/4 are a mix of two or more entries that the modder has come up by accident. How the heck could you even start to explain something like that? :rotfl:(This' an example of my IL2 modding adventures.)

Kapitan_Phillips 07-05-08 02:42 PM
What's GWX? :88)

AVGWarhawk 07-05-08 02:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kpt. Lehmann
Another note that could maybe result in something neat for Subsim.

I've spoken with a number of recognizeable people from Subsim over the last few years via TEAMSPEAK (realtime voice communication program) and have viewed the following strange/paradoxical/unbelievable comments (paraphrased) from those individuals...

"You know, when you talk with Kpt. Lehmann... it turns out he's a pretty reasonable guy."

Ducimus,
AVG_Warhawk,
and
Rockin' Robbins.

It seems you guys have rather short memories.

I am the same person I've always been... and I am still accessible. Jimbuna has posted the info here at Subsim publicly.

The GWX Mod Team has resolved numerous internal misunderstandings via Teamspeak. Maybe such a device could be made for Subsim.

For any interested, and outside real-life obligations, I'll speak to anyone who has the courage to ask and to use their own voice. (Bring a microphone to save us all a huge headache though if you do.)
You and the team being reasonable is not the issue here. I spoke with you on TS before and it concerned you part in the ASW ships in GW over two years ago. I praised your efforts were others were crying it was too hard. You thanked me for the support with it. I have one hell of a memory. I think all the team are stand up, but it is the tactics with others when they do not agree that is my concern. I have asked several of the team to be the leaders, not the bashers.

The issue here was solving problems between theaters with this thread. Although we vented some steam, this was the underlying idea of Neals. So, everyone threw everyone else under the bus and we still do not have a sound resolution. Job well done by all. I say that in jest folks.

Kpt. Lehmann 07-05-08 02:49 PM
Well, AVG.

It seems we are at an impasse and readers will simply have to choose who they believe.

Again I see the accusation that I supposedly compared the U.S. Navy's significance in the PTO to the abilities of the Lithuanian navy... without being able to prove it.

(The accusation is CHUM by the way... and TOTAL BS.)

If you'd bother to read my posts you'd see that I've not painted us to be innocent.

I am telling you, as NEAL has already stated... that we are not usually the aggressors in forum conflict.

You say that you've not received a single complaint from GWX teamers? Horsedump. The team's feelings regarding your moderatorship were not created out of thin air... and I personally defended you in private for a long time. (Not that I can prove that I have... because I cannot.)

You made your bed.

Penelope_Grey 07-05-08 02:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk
So, everyone threw everyone else under the bus and we still do not have a sound resolution. Job well done by all. I say that in jest folks.
Very defeatist attitude is that.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...&postcount=239

What is wrong with that for an implementable solution?

bigboywooly 07-05-08 03:00 PM
Aye agreed Pen
Sounds like a plan


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