I feel it's time to chime in here also. I own SH4 but I do not play it anymore. Reasons are my own and don't need to be made public here.
I think Monolith has a valid point here. The subsim modding etiquette is RECOMMENDED but not enforced. It only takes a couple of times of someone telling you 'permission denied' because they have a pompous attitude or took something personally or for whatever reason before you have to look the other way and move forward with what you want to do.
As with everything in this world monopolies always emerge. It is up to the people to determine how these monopolies control or try to control things, not them.
I think it's time we revamp the modding etiquette suggestions. They were written to serve a purpose at the time but the time now is completely different of what it was back then. Just as the U.S. constitution has been amended since it's inception the modding etiquette needs some amendments also.
Just my $0.02. :)

I understand your feelings maerean. However the reason some people may consider SHIV nothing more than a "pretty screensaver" is that so much that was loved from SHIII was left out of SHIV. The best example is the crew interaction. I went back and played SHIII a while ago and while I really missed the great graphics of SHIV, I was reminded of how much the crew interaction feature gives that "being there" feeling.

When I click on my watch officer and he turns to me an responds, it may sound silly, it increases the immersion factor by 1000%. Why this was left out of SHIV I cannot imagine. It was in SHIII. Was there no time to animate the characters other than just spinning in circles?

The point is that while most of us were able to look past these omissions because our love of the Pacific theatre, it gave those U-Boat lovers something to laugh at. Therefore their conversion to SHIV could never be possible.

It was a big mistake on Ubisoft's (or whoever's) part to not a least import the features of the prequel to the sequel.
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By the way, this whole modding permissions thing is absolutely ridiculous. Just so I understand, if I mod GWX and then release it for FREE I am going to make someone upset? Who the ******** cares. What are they going to do, sue me?

As long as I acknowledge the work of those that I have modded what is the problem? What ever happened to the concept of "immitation is the best form of flattery"? I understand someone may have worked very hard on a mod, but the whole point of this community is open source right?

Some people need to get a life outside of the "modding world"... :roll:
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amen brother. That's why it's time for a change. :yep:

I'm following this thread with a great deal of interest.

I'm now a lot happier that the blatant labelling and blanket castigation of collective groups and accompanying derogatory terminology has ceased also.

I do not find it acceptable that everyone be tarred with one brush, or presumed to be something or other because of their involvement with a particular game, modding team, or even because of what is on their sig.
There are a lot of good people involved with both SH3 and SH4.
Great strides in modding terms have been made in both games....non more so than in SH3, but it is early days yet for SH4 and in the fullness of time I sincerely hope and expect we will see those same strides achieved in SH4.
That will not happen until all this bickering and fighting ceases and both sets of modding communities come to know, trust and gather the will to work together.
Time alone will tell.

Me personally, I look forward to that day.

Fair winds and following seas everyone.

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I do not intend the following remarks in a confrontational manner, but fully realise they run the risk of multiple interpretation:

@Racerboy
Your comments puzzle me sir.....in recent times, during your short modding career here, I am aware of all the detailed help you have received from certain parties over at GWX. Information that has been vital to your achievements to date.
I wonder how your latest remarks regarding the modding etiquette will be viewed by those who answered your calls for help and assistance.

Respectfully Yours
Jimbuna

I travel to London for 3 days in the morning and whilst I am quite happy to continue this debate it may be Wednesday evening before I am able (I must spare a thought for my Blackberry battery....not to mention my Shift Inspector) ;)

One problem is that your a victim of your success in SH3... The thought that seems to run through a number of opinions is that some of the best of SH3 didn't make into SH4...

The other point, IMO, is that there is a VERY dedicated number of sub sim players who expect/demand more from the sims. I'm not sure how many players consider "submarine warfare" more a game, than a simulation. I know I don't...

It takes more than 'eye candy' to keep someone interested IMO. The upside is that the devs have been responsive in releasing patches that address core issues. The other upside is that the sims are moddable to great extent, providing more replayability and improving upon the "official resources" included with a game...

I don't pretend to understand the SH3/SH4 arguments other than to say I think you have those who prefer the ATO and those who prefer the PTO. I'm one of the latter...

Interesting thoughts one and all

Just to clarify the permissions thing Monolith

RB was given advice on the way to go with what he wanted to do
IE create a NEW guns\shells dat as VAA\Lilliput and Sergbuto have done

That way his mod is compatable with ALL SH3 major mods not just GWX including stock

:up:

You are correct BBW. I have made my own dats but that was one obstacle. I needed to add some other nodes and such to other files and was denied. This is where the changes need to come into play. If someone wants to use a file to add functionality to it to make it compatible then one should do it and give credit to the responsible parties for additing to it. Having to ask to use the file is ludicrous and underminds modding attempts. All it takes is one person to say no because they have some kind of ego trip or whatever and stifles what could be a great mod or addition. I, for one, will not accept this anymore and will do whatever I need to do to make my mods compatible with others. Take it as you will. I respect the work of others and will acknowledge their work. There is a difference in stealing and giving/acknowledging credit to the work of others. :smug:

Hey Ubi devs. Now that the U boat addon is still on development,why not to introduce the I-400 and Ha-201 Jap class submarines and call the expansion Axis addon? This would be a quite good challenge,and would give the players a wide range of ships to choose.

I guess they won't do it because it would take too long. The U-Boats allready exist and just have to be put into the game. Japanes subs would have to be created from scrap. At least that's my understanding, please correct me if I'm wrong.

Yes, playable Japanese subs would have to be made from scratch. The exteriors might not be too hard, but the interiors would take more work. Then they would have to model the crew members. Then they would have to hire voice actors, and create all the separate files for the Japanese voices.

Think you nailed it. Playable jap subs would be a ton of development time. Otherwise, id wager thats what we'd see instead. I have to admit, the idea of commanding a jap sub under those type of game conditions would be pretty novel. Nobody's ever done that before i dont think.

As I mentioned in another thread, playing a Japanese sub commander, unless you wanted a "fantasy" scenario, would be pretty limited. The IJN High Command never considered their subs as primary offensive weapons. Yes, a few US ships (very few) were sunk/damaged by Jap subs mostly as a result of accidental meetings or interceptions on a "picket line"...

They were assigned mosty to supply, picket duty and recon missions. The one unique feature that they did have was the ability of some models, such as the I-400, to launch and recover recon aircraft...

There in lies the point MONOLITH. No matter what you do to SH3 what you attempt to modify, it will sadly never have the graphical gorgeousness that SH4 does. Now, there are mods that do ramp up the graphics on SH3 as far as they can possibly go. But they will never be SH4 quality. If you take a regular run of the mill Ford and soup it up to the hilt, its still a ford. SH4 is a porchse. It has more potential and more capability.

SH4 is a good game and with luck patch 1.4 will correct all the faults. Cool.:up: However, this is me speaking generally now... I don't think giving the SH3 players something U-boaty in the SH4 enviroment is a bad thing. Its progress. The US subs are still there, and improved, and there is something for the SH3 players, and, even offers the chance to make the dream of people when they saw SH4 a reality. That dream being "wouldn't it be cool to have U-boats in this enviroment."


This I do agree with you on.

GWX appears to be the most popular of the supermods and I can understand why. I cant even remember what stock SH3 played like prior to GWX Cant imagine SH3 without it!

The Permissions thing shouldn't be an issue. Its just basic courtesy and good manners, and while there is the argument the whole "all files belong to Ubi" yes, they do. But when you consider the work that modders, any modders, not just the GWX team, do on the files, for the benefit of all and how long it can take! Then, asking for permission to tinker is only fair.

If you do something to ruffle that modder(s) feathers or show disrespect to that modder and they say no you can get your own files, you can't use my work as abasis for yours... then, you've only got yourself to blame IMO. We can't all like each other, but we can be respectful and considerate personal feelings aside.


That... with all due respect... is easy for you to say, or anybody else. The simple truth is.. as I see it personally... when you have a huge compilation mod which you and your teammates - if applicable - have worked on very hard and sacrificed a lot of time to do... and somebody comes and asks if they can release a mod for your mod which will do - XYZ. You'd say sure, go for it. If you say no, its just spite.

Say, some other bloke comes along, and he's been riding you and your associates for a while, drumming up rumours, saying things that aren't true. Unfair criticisms and just generally looking to berate, and he says "Can I do ABC" Its only human nature to tell that person "get stuffed." Its hard to turn the other cheek, and there has to be limits, or else we become doormats and pushovers.

My point is, permissions; its a two way street not one way as you suggest from the big mod down. No, the lone modders have as much responsibility here as the modding teams do. So its got to be both ways, and frankly, a lot of the time it has only been one way. Further, some people will see only what they wish to see which doesn't help matters. I would dearly love to see the day where all modders co-exist and the politics can just go there.

Again this is a two way street, as I say above.

Ducimus has done a smashing job with Trigger Maru.:up: That cannot be denied. Nor should it MONOLITH.

However, again its not as simple as that, if you had gave Ducimus a hard time or said "this is crap thats crap" and it does happen with big mods.... and he said no he didn't want to share his work with you after what you had done... Then tough, I'd agree with that position. And say sorry MONOLITH, but the guy you anger today could be the guy you need in a weeks time.

True it does hurt the community to an extent, but its up to the two sides to sort it out then and open dialogue. However, there is no reason to expect Ducimus as you mention again, or any modder(s) to just roll over and agree to all sorts. What you are saying is "permissions are great, as long as eveyrbody says YES all the time" And its just not fair to expect that.

Behind the work is real people, with real feelings and real pride in what they have done and contributed, and all people have a right to defend themselves.

Again you are basically saying, Permission is fine as long as its always yes.

Yeah that's true you could use it anyway, but considering I am 100% for the modders and their contributions, if I personally, got sniff of the fact you used somebody's work without permission... Id whip it out and go back to what it was before... my principles would not allow me to keep using it, and I'd be sure to let everybody know what a snake in the grass about it all you were if it was one of my friends that got ripped off, or me personally. If it was somebody I didn't know, I might keep quiet... But I make no promises to that either.

I dont see this in a negative way, I just think that blame does not reside entirely on one side. And what you are proposing is good, but it has to work two ways. Respect and class is a two way street.

One cannot bite the hand now, and expect same hand to feed you later. That is my point.

I think they are fine just the way they are. Its not the modding ettiquette that needs revamping Racerboy... its the posting etiquette.

You may say what you want but you are a part of the team in question so it's easy for you to take that point of view.
I'm fed up with it all and so is a lot of other people. Either things change or there's going to be a lot of discontent and who knows what else.
Adding functionality or adding what is necessary to make a new mod compatible with something else is not stealing or anything of the likes of it. Again, say what you will but it falls on deaf ears.
People can either accept that change is needed or we can go into a state of anarchy. I, for one, will not be shoved into a corner and my creativity and imagination stifled due to someone or some group saying 'mommy he used my stuff without asking'. I have tried to be nice about this but since I've been shoved into the corner it's time to fight back.
Let me remind you that the modding etiquette is RECOMMENDED also. Or did you forget to read that? I will play by the rules providing the rules are fair. Currently they are not.