Hi Hitman,

I thought again about limiting the use of torpedoes to wind speeds below 15m/s or some other value. I really think this would not be a good idea because whenever you encounter 15m/s wind there is nothing you can do in SH3. As a consequence, you will just TC until the wind decreases. And since patrols in SH3 are practically not limited in time, nothing has changed in SH3. You've skipped a few days, but your crew is still fine, you still have the torpedoes you had before the storm, maybe a bit less fuel (if you've not stopped your engines). There is no impact on the player's behavior, except that he has to TC from time to time to skip the storm.

In fact, the only thing that has really changed is the player's time. To quote Pink Floyd's song Time: 'the sun/SH3 is the same in a relative way, but you're older, shorter of breath and one day closer to death' :D (ok, also in SH3 you are one day closer to death :rotfl2:)

In contrast, if you have a high failure rate at 15m/s you can still try to attack and maybe you are lucky and sink something :yep: And if not, it's still more interesting than skipping 15m/s periods via TC.

Cheers, LGN1

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/...ccbeaa456g.jpg

This image shows how LGN1's model works.

The Depth D1 is determined by the windspeed-dependent waveheight. D1 can be calculated:

D1 = Windspeed / 3.

Torpedoes above D1 are surface runners and lead to a failure probability of p = 100% (see red part of the diagram).

Water below Depth = D2 is assumed to be calm. Torpedos below D2 will have a low failure probability of p = po. The value of po depends on the time (torpedo crisis until 1942) and the pistol chosen (magnetic/impact).

The area between the depths D1 and D2 is the area of turbolences. Here, the failure probability sinks linear with rising depth from p=100% at Depth = D1 to the small value of p=po at Depth = D2.

@LGN1: Looking at the diagram above, I think, that the amount (thickness D2-D1) of the turbolences should be made waveheight-dependent and not constant.

For example, I cannot believe that at windspeed 0 m/s and no waves at all, we have turbulences in 2m depth.

And at high storms, the area of turbulences surely is thicker than 2m.

Thus, I would use the following values:

D1 = 0.333 * WindSpeed
D2 = (0.5 .... 0.666) * WindSpeed

Hi h.sie,

thanks for the picture. I think it nicely explains the model :up:

Unfortunately, I made a mistake :oops: The wave height is not the amplitude, but the difference between the maximum and minimum value. Therefore, we have to use half of the wave height (this is only an approximation since water waves are asymmetric. The question is also what is the reference for the torpedo depth :hmmm:. I think we have to include these unknowns in the 'turbulence layer' part).

Edit: I agree with your previous post. So, we would have:

D1 = WindSpeed / 6
D2 = WindSpeed / 3

Regards, LGN1

@LGN1: At windspeed = 15 we'll have D1 = 2,5m and D2 = 5m.

This will have only low effect on gameplay. Too low IMHO.

Just some additional information:

In remark 78.) of the submarine commander's handbook is written (http://www.hnsa.org/doc/uboat/index.htm):

a) as regards the underwater use of torpedoes: as soon as the underwater steering gear can no longer be controlled at periscope depth. In the case of small submarines, the dividing line will be sea No. 5 or 6, for medium and large boats, sea No. 6 or 7, approximately.
b) As regards the surface use of torpedoes: the dividing line in this case is reached in somewhat less rough conditions than apply to the underwater use of torpedoes, on account of the unfavorable influence of the rough sea on the maneuverability of the vessel on the surface.

Sea state 6 has 4-6m wave height. This should roughly correspond to 14-17 m/s wind speed. So it seems that at all wind speeds in SH3 one should be able to use torpedoes.

And here is an order from Dönitz:

1). Torpedoes steer up to 2 meters [deeper] than set. Therefore depth setting is 2 meters less than targets draught, although because of the danger of surface runners not shallower than 3 meters, 4 meters in strong Atlantic waves.

With a safe setting of 5m you will not be able to attack any small ship / escort with the impact pistol. And we still have p0 even below D2.

I think we have two components in the mod: 1.) the torpedo failure rate and 2.) enforcing the minimum depth setting because of surface runners. These two aspects are linked, but only until a certain depth is set.

Maybe I should look into EnvSim.act again. The weather generator algorithm creates windspeeds up to 30m/s, but these are limited to 15m/s later in the code. The devs surely had to fix that because of weird side-effects (ships sinking from waves and so on).

@H.sie:
Easily fixed: allow the SH3 code to use its current internal values, but double the internal value when it is reported to the player.

Stiebler.

@Stiebler: I intended to simply nop out the limitation commands....

@H.sie:
But won't that mean that the 'weird side-effects' return?

Stiebler.

Yes, I think so, but I'm curious what happens with real 30m/s. CTD?

What was the intention behind your idea? Only to display a windspeed multiplied with 2 (30 instead of 15)?

@H.sie,
Yes, nice and simple. A magical illusion without effort, that would rebalance storm effects in SH3 with the wind speeds needed in real life to create them.

(Also, you have PM, for a revised Options Selector.)

Stiebler.

In the end, the windspeed is something similar to what happens with the environment: We can't force the game to render up to 50 kms, but are instead limited to 20km. So we either pretend that in all the war there was never a better visibility ... or scale down all the world (sensors, convoy size, etc) to fit in those 20kms.

The solution proposed by Stiebler is in that line, we just update the messages, "scaling" in them what the game provides to a real world size. That is also the reason why I insisted in not being able to shoot torpedoes with 15 m/s winds, as those are the equivalents to real world 30 m/s winds.

I'd however also be curious to see what happens with those 30 m/s winds. Considering that the wave size is in the scene.dat and can be tweaked with Silent Editor, we know that in fact the sea state you will see is independent from the wind (You can put 30 cms waves for the 15 m/s winds and you will get storms with flat seas!), so my bet is that what will happens is mainly that we will see the clouds travelling in the sky at ridiculous speeds (They seem already quite fast with 15 m/s winds). Maybe that's what the Devs wanted to avoid, but trying can't do any harm and who knows what we might discover! :up:

Just for curiosity: Why do you think that the wind speed in SH3 should be higher :06: It seems to me that the wave height at 15m/s in SH3 is not too far off from what you would expect in nature at 15m/s wind :hmmm:

Maybe the Devs just neglected storms because it's really difficult to create a good representation of the waves in a storm (has SH5 high storm waves?) and from a game-play point of view there's not much to do during a storm.

BTW, if I remember correctly many people wanted to have the extended periods of heavy fog/low visibility reduced because there is nothing you can do in these periods. I guess a real storm would just be the same.

Regards, LGN1