They usually are. It's the nature of the beast.

You said neither Hitchins nor Dawkins understands basic scientific principles. I only wanted to show that one of the most respected scientists around disagrees with that assessment.

Actually I was agreeing with you. I was also pointing out what I consider to be the greatest flaw in Creationist arguments. A concept (hypothosis) is proposed on the sole basis that someone said it is so. There is no evidence at all, yet they dare you to disprove it and attack a theory is is based on evidence. I decided to do the same.

The problem is that the theist wants to tell you about his God. When told he can't prove that his God even exists he brings up your "negative" argument. If the athiest proclaims that "There is no God", then indeed your argument is true. If he askes that the proclaiming theist give proof for his claim, then he is not making a counterclaim but merely challenging the original claim. This is very much more common than the other.

This is why I will never claim to be an Atheist. As long as I can't show for a fact that there is no God I will have to be lumped into the 'Agnostic' category.

Everything else was addressed to someone else, so I'll stay out of that part.

Ah I see it wasn't that clear to me.

But that method of announcing the time is hundreds of years old.What is different about him and the people who move in next to an airport then complain about the noise.

Best business in the world, why so many atheist get in the business of religion.

If you lived next to a church that did that you probably wouldn't even notice it after a very short time.
But a brass band marching past your bedroom every Sunday morning on their way to church is another matter entirely

Well, religion is about everywhere in here. You hear a politician make a statement on Radio he somehow manages to place the words "christian values" in a discussion about fiscal fraud.

Churchbells ringing as a call to duty (ever since i remember)
Churches running hospitals and refusing treatment to people... and the state pays the bills.

Walk along the Streets of town, you see the Whitnesses do their standing.
sunday morning, 10 AM, doorbell rings. again them. Okay, twice a year... still too much.

religion is not in my face every day - it is in the fabric of my life like a friggin infection.


and whom do i serve (disserve)? what cause? what is written on my banner? nothing. there is no banner, no group, no association. so i do not do disservice to anyone but me by nagging people.

hate me.

ah no you cant... you wold go to hell for dat, eh? :haha:
oops!

That sounds more familiar than I was expecting. I was probably around 6 or 7 when I first quizzed my parents over the whole issue, wondering why if as they taught in school that this biblical account of events was historical reality, did it not seem to figure in our lives? I was met with 'some people believe, some don't. It's up to you to decide whether you think it is true or not.' and upon further 'When dealing with apparent dilemmas it is important to make sure there is not a third option or middle way.' and without the mental faculty to understand the latter I became what you could describe as firmly atheist until high school when the myriad complexities of natural reality and ludicrous nature of human politics and social rituals started to push me back towards metaphysics.

Understood. I'm quite practiced myself actually... but then I have been haunted by the eerie beauty of sorrow just as much as the elation of joy ever since I was played Barrios by my father before I could form memories. My favorites aren't on youtube, but stuff like this:

:Dhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=090ptcp1jA8
:wah:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZTndq2qdXY

should give an idea of the emotive range of such an instrument. I have a handmade Spanish guitar and play it but this stuff takes decades of scales and theory.

Sadly, no link. that was part of a song, and I have the music in my head. I have barely recorded anything and for a long time now I've just been learning rock/blues covers that can be transcribed down to 1 man and his guitar, as over the years my experiences with bands have been frustrating - kids, jobs, college, uni make it practically impossible for 3 people to get together all at the same time for a few hours a week.

I try not to worry too much about what people think about me, rather than simply what they think. Though point taken about the monologue :yep: I just feel I get relatively few responses to arguably reasonable questions and in the end, often just simply explain how I see it instead.

This cause:


You wish.


Can't rightly say since such concepts are largely irrelevant to me.

Oh, that would be a fictious cause, for the time being.
I do not think they would take me. I dislike mankind too.:yeah:
stupid Buggers.

But that is another Topic. Back to the T-Rex... :D

I'm afraid he's a bit preoccupied at the moment...

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/11/12/yzase8e3.jpg

The question may be, are we evolving or devolving as a race.
Maybe we're a lower life form than those previous.

If i was supposed to answer briefly and dead serious, the answer is a loud YES.
i am not talking about IQ or Facebook, about fast cars or nukes, concorde or dynamite, banalities in the larger picture. Not about Religion, Politics or worldwide communication and recording of data in various forms (images on caves to the latest SSD...)

Humans have left the system, the nature, have outgrown its intended place on this planet. They imagine things waiting for them after life, think big thoughts about parallel lifes and universes..., yet sometimes deny the same things to their dogs and kettle.

humans have grown a massive ego.

It may be a short term evo-lution, like a local, tactical victory, a triumph of performance and complexity, all weak and relative in the face of mother nature.

But in the long term, humans are not doing themselves a favor by evolving and using technology.
Therefor moving backwards because nature is still stronger than us.

As a race we are evolving. But like all things, the results of our evolution will bring us to a dead end. (in my opinion)
Is that enough to say "de-volution?"

We are an ultra-modern, self-writing AI-simulation software code running on a very old hardware that bases on an archaic BIOS.

The archaic BIOS is our problem. It is what sends us bluescreening.

The hardware is the reason that needs the AI-software learning how to update it.

The AI software is what is going CTD time and again because of the primitive BIOS.

So what we are is a new software experiment by the evolutionary coders that has led them into a dead end because they have neither the hardware nor the BIOS to make effective and lasting use of this new software.

What I mean is abstract intelligence coupled with our amount of individual self-awareness seem to be unique and seem to be a first on this Earth. They are young concepts still, and their value, from an evolutionary POV, still has not been proven. Possible, that the experiment will run out and will be replaced by something different, so that the features defining us will never be tried again.

Whale sharks are almost unchanged in design since over 400 million years. That makes me think (the first dinosaurs appeared around 230 million years ago, and went over the cliff around 70 million years ago).

like our minds are faster than our biological updates?
might be...
if we could get rid of this bio mass that we need and feed...:hmm2:
and replace with either no body (ghost style) or integrate our minds into our networks, replacing AI by our own intelligence, therefor making the networks and server farms our own.
and the physical part can be dealt with by roboters... controlled by human minds from within the networks.

No, more like our survival instincts from eons ago helped us back then, but today seal our doom for they collide with our reason and insight into what needs to be done in the changed environment today. We want to solve problems of the present by the instincts designed for situations long time ago.

Those situations may return again, however. After our fall.

may return... more like: after our fall we hope to still have these instincts as backup instructions for survival.:o

I am convinced for no appearent reason that a "fall" lies ahead. Whatever shape it might have how ever it will manifest itself.

That will be the moment where we (have to) get back into the system nature, instead of trying and proclaiming to dominate it.
Is that an evolution? an evolution WITH our surroundings, instead of like today evolution disregarding our surroundings?


random questions:
Is the Human of today his own God, when he looks back at his past (and making the same mistakes time and again, wars:-?) and when he is amazed by his achievements? (percieved achievements... facebook :-?)

Is the thought and concept to have been created by a God, and to have won the battle against the T-Rex (&Co) not a form of Arrogance that is typically human, as it portrais ourselves to have survived these beasts, and all those that came after them, up until now?

Is this "painting ourselves as Victors" not almost the same as "proclaiming us bigger better and more badass than the rest of nature..." proclaiming us GOD ourselves?, just one tiny little bit?

Yes, it is late... nap time.
these thoughts confuse my stupid mind.
Humans... silly humans, aren't we.

This is not what I was talking about. I don't believe that any one should be exempt from criticism if they make their beliefs known. Period.

This is what I was talking about.

This seems to me to go beyond mere criticism of someone's beliefs. It appears that he wants to deny people the right to freedom of expression. If it isn't he made no attempt to say so.

I did say that. It was in response to the above quote.

Here I would have to disagree with you. Atheist's have websites, blogs, TV shows etc. They have organizations and they hold conventions. And they write books, some which have been best sellers. They are freely expressing their beliefs all the time. And they should be able to. Shouldn't every body have this right? Actually they do. It's the law in your country and mine as well as Skybirds. If he isn't saying that then I would apologize but he would have to clear the air in regards to his demands to keep it "to keep thy religion for thyself. Do not dare to bother others with it,"

I believe there is a Creator being and I would call myself a Christian, but I am not what you would call a fundamentalist. I do not think that religion should be the basis for scientific thought. They are two completely different disiplines. Nor do I believe that the earth was created in six days. Nor do I believe that a human would have much of a chance against a T rex. :O: I love science and try to keep up on the latest advancements. I miss my calling. I think I would look good in a lab coat.:D

The "fall" will most likely be caused by global war over sweet water, food, farming land, resources, ideological dominance (most likely not politically but relgiously motivated); or natural desaster, cosmic desaster, or a global epidemic outbreak. Starvations and depletion of even the most basic natural resources like firewood, fishes to fish, animals to hunt, also are within the possible. I refer - once again - to Jared Diamond: Collapse. Not the only book on these issues I know - but the best book on these issues that I know. That's why I recommend it again every couple of months.

The manifestation of the fall will be a collapse of the higher functions and structures of human civilization, in reverse sequence of their construction. From supranational bodies back to regional structures, from regional structures back to tribal structures. First communication and traffic, internationally, break down. Trade breaks down. Since resources are no longer traded, local economic crisis. Collapse of fiscal and economic systems. Collapse of states' authorities. No army, no police anymore, no law, no system to replace these. Anarchy. Tribal communities. Fewer people. Much fewer people. If mankind goes e3xtinct, it will be a longer process, most liekly (ignoring biological or atomic wars, meteor strikes and such obvious killer events, and even these would take months and years to come to full extinction effect, except maybe getting hit by a stellar radiation stream from the sun or a distant pulsar or something like that).

How did we get to discussing this now...? :-? :timeout:

Freedom of expression?

The churches built all over europe, as an example... are.. a form of freedom of expression by the believers?

i have rarely seen an atheist build some kind of... church or some such large protruding building.

because that would be "shoving our point of view into the face of the people living around you"

nor are there courses on how to become a good atheist at school... that young ones have to attend, no questions asked, no options given.
That would be "shoving our POV in the face of others".
church, religion, believers do that.


nor do nonbelievers have a head of nonbelievers, leading the pack.
nor do the nonbelievers have some sort of guidance book and a set of rules to follow lest ye rot in hell, scumbag!
That would be "shoving our POV in the face of others".
see the media coverage of the new Pope...

...shoved in my face for days without end, and barely a way to avoid it.
like a sickness that only time, and a focus on other things can cure.

nor do nonbelievers shove their nonbeliefs all over the globe by killiing believers for the good of their cause.
...i bet religious people still do that, all over the globe.

far as i can tell, nonbelievers see believers and simply do not care.
because nonbelievers mostly gave up believing for a reason, and therefor have made some sort of choice.

Religion... is the absence of choice. It gets in my face and on my nerves like Propaganda gets in the face of a North Korean Farmer.
has gotten in my face as a kid... religion based education, religion-based lifestyle, religion based rites, habits and whatnot.

religion has had its fair share of "Freedom of expression" with me.

...largely overstepping boundaries in a quite agressive fashion.

But news is good!

At least in the domain of building "(Christian) religion-in-our-face" churches... we are making progress.
A church not far from me was torn down because it was old, ground moved, and could not be repaired, it was simply not worth the hassle. :rock:
http://www.lessentiel.lu/fr/news/story/19402102

Mare Norstum...
http://www.heise.de/open/artikel/Mar...he-221951.html
a Christian Church re-used to support the new church of bits and bytes... google says hello.
still a church (from one malheur to another), but no bellringing, no propaganda except for students that are interested in visiting the place.
:yeah:

Belgium...
unused church converted to a shop for expensive stuff...
http://www.zonebattler.net/2008/08/2...und-zurueck-3/


freedom of expression is one thing - getting on the nerves and into the lives of people is another don't you think.

Something like that, yes.
how exactly it will be... time will tell.
I am scared it might happen in my lifetime.
But the last 30 years that i was here things have not gone bust on a global level, so i may just make "the run to my grave" without whitnessing such a dead-end scenario.

it is interesting. such thoughts have haunted me since i was a kid of 8, 9 something... wars, nukes and natural disasters, but most of al, human arrogance.

civilization is just the icing on the animals we atill are.
That i hope we still are, in that case.
:D

You just edited my quote to change the meaning. That's a good debating tactic. What I said quite plainly was that religious freedom is part of the package that includes freedom of speech and opinion. What I said.

Don't put words in my mouth.

Why don't you stop using these vague stories and say exactly what you mean? Are you afraid I won't understand it or are you afraid to say it?

Skybird if you can give one single example of where I have done anything like this please feel free to post it. If you can't you should stop saying it. You are obviously speaking in generalities but you are directing it at me as if I am doing this. I consider that a cheap shot.

That's all we need.