SUBSIM Radio Room Forums - Silent Hunter IV U-Boat Mission add-on

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- Silent Hunter 4: Wolves of the Pacific (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/forumdisplay.php?f=202)

- - Silent Hunter IV U-Boat Mission add-on (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=124306)

I bought a Chevy truck after years of saying what hunks of junk they were. Do I need to call GM if want to put new tires on it?:D

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pikes

Haha! I may have no posts on this forum but i know forums and you guys all broke the common sense rule on this one. Thanks for the entertaining read, i think it should now be deleted. Forum "conversations" where there is a strong possibility of tenseness and opposed opinion should be locked at the first sign of being personal. I remember the same sort of fights breaking out in the flight sim "Falcon" over modding teams, ego's, rights and all the other irrelevant stuff that goes with great creation for end user benefit.

Do yourselves a favour and pick up a phone or take it private, wether or not a post is intelligently put without swearing its still a fight and no good comes of it unless you can actually reach a common ground and I cant see that (prove me wrong for our benefit tho')

Personally ive loved all the work here and anyone that contributed has contributed to my happiness.

On topic, the patch proposed was trying to please everyone at the same time too. My personal opinion is irrelevant, that I prered SH3 and the Atlantic theme. Fact is the gfx engine in SHIV is better and it has to lead future modding. Something was captured in SH3 that isnt in SHIV. Grey Wolves was enthusiastic about the Atlantic and that came across well. Something about the scream of "Alarm" rather than a mild "Shall we stroll down to 160 feet captain?" that made simulation come closer. Even if Ubi's is just an economic fudge I welcome development AND mods.

Now shall we go back to work? (PS fantastic video link above, loved it :))

Granted this 'discussion' has has it's tense times and balks and objections but nonetheless it's a discussion that needs to be aired to all. To ask for deletion would just delay this discussion to a further time :nope:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ducimus

So this is back to etiquette is it?

Modder ediqutte is a vehicle on how GWX maintains control over their mod, and ultimatly SH3 in general. GWX team does not share crap in terms of tools, or knowledge with the community. You will never see the GWX team releasing tweak files for any files in their mod, nor even tools. You will never see them talking in detail about their AI visual settings, nor their choice in sub mechanics. Its all a big secret.

Along the lines of secrecy, GWX has created inhouse tools that they choose not to share with the community at all. They keep this to themselves, so nobody else can use them. They made this one a few years ago, http://www.ducimus.net/sh4/jammu.jpg

I imagine that they've had something like this
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=119571
For quite some time now.

If GWX was so benevolant and misunderstood, why all the secrecy? NYGM is essentually dead, there is nobody to compete with, DTB is gone, and for that matter, why compete at all? Have to be the big kid on the block? You'd think that after all this time, they'd take their victory loral, retire, and enjoy the game they made for themselves, but they don't. Ultimatly, GWX doesn't share, they just take. They are sort of like the borg. They assimiliate.

My biggest issue is, I know they'll work their way to SH4, and apply their brand of eithics to what is otherwise a wonderful mod community. Open source is a wonderful modding enviorment, but it is one that is not supported by GWX. They'll assimilate the community here, and ultimatly control this community as well as the SH3 community. I make no mistake here, KL is very good at playing his poltical cards on subsim. He has alot of clout and influence, and is very good at manipulating people to get what he wants. I know this response of mine will probably bring a heated reply, and im going to do my best to ignore that reply. But I beleive i know what i speak of. I've been in the deepest bowls of the stink that is GWX and got quite a bit of it on myself, and im none too proud of that. Infact, im ashamed of myself for having ever been involved with that mod project or the project manager behind it. Its a shame i can't revoke my "permission" on some of my contributions there. Of course by GWX standards, maybe i can, but would they adhere to that? No, of course not, its not in their best interest. The only ethics that interests KL, iare ones that are to his bennfit, not the communities.

Sour grapes from Ducimas. His bitterness is nothing new. He caused nothing but trouble for us internally and nature took its course.

Yes we have cool tools... and a "high speed - low drag" methodology. Besides, those tools evolve quickly... and IF they were released... our mod developmental work would come to a stand-still while user support efforts run the shop.

Not only that... but potentially doing so would contribute to a proliferation of MOD SOUP... that nothing solid could ever form from the resulting mess.

We can either be effective at building... or explaining... but there is only enough manpower for one of the two. (This is a real catch-22.)

As much as a handful of disgruntled and bitter people here would have you believe, it is not any sort of 'chokehold' that we seek and has nothing to do with NYGM... or "kicking" other modders.

Our IRE is directed at those who try to harm our overall effort to produce competent and reliable material... and those guys tentacles try EVERYTHING to do exactly that.

Let them come.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kpt. Lehmann

As much as a handful of disgruntled and bitter people here would have you believe, it is not any sort of 'chokehold' that we seek and has nothing to do with NYGM... or "kicking" other modders.

If that is true then you have no problems with people using files without asking permission as long as they credit the original maker or team. Or am I incorrect here?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racerboy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kpt. Lehmann

As much as a handful of disgruntled and bitter people here would have you believe, it is not any sort of 'chokehold' that we seek and has nothing to do with NYGM... or "kicking" other modders.

If that is true then you have no problems with people using files without asking permission as long as they credit the original maker or team. Or am I incorrect here?

Read my freakin' posts and knock off the stupid attempts at manipulation.

First you ask permission. If the builder says "no" you accept it.

I'm off to work. Flame away.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kpt. Lehmann

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racerboy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kpt. Lehmann

As much as a handful of disgruntled and bitter people here would have you believe, it is not any sort of 'chokehold' that we seek and has nothing to do with NYGM... or "kicking" other modders.

If that is true then you have no problems with people using files without asking permission as long as they credit the original maker or team. Or am I incorrect here?

Read my freakin' posts and knock off the stupid attempts at manipulation.

First you ask permission. If the builder says "no" you accept it.

I'm off to work. Flame away.

I, and probably everyone else, will take that as a no then to my question. What you said above is false. :nope:

I have a few things to say here about permissions. I've only skimmed the last few pages of this thread because it looked like a lot of repetition and people saying things consistent with what they've already said in other threads (not that people shouldn't post it here, I'm just saying why I skimmed ;))

Quote:

Ok let me ask you this, If I'd criticised your ... mods and picked fault and took a shot at you for this and that and generally you felt like I was having an attitude with you and then low and behold I say to you one day, can I have permission to use your ... mod and do ABC XYZ? you seriously mean to tell me, you'd say "sure thing go right ahead"

If you say you would, you are either telling fibs... or... you are genuine and in my view, very limp to roll over so easy, especially after I'd given you attitude.

I've edited out bits of the above post and replaced them with "..."

I've not named the person I quoted because it's not an attack or a retaliation to that person. But they raised a point I find very interesting. Their point of view is one I've been unable to get my head around.

In the quoted scenario I would grant the permission. In fact if you look at the readme/thread for the mod I released recently, I've stated that anyone can use my work without permission, and I ask only for credit.

Does this make me "very limp"? Someone who "rolls over easily"? Or does it make me someone who thinks that the only thing to be gained from denying permissions is the false feeling that I've made a right from two wrongs?

To those who would deny someone permission to use freeware as a base from which to create more freeware - yes, even someone who has insulted you, used you, whatever - what exactly do you think you stand to gain/achieve by denying permission? Do you think you will "teach them a lesson"? Is that what we (modders) are trying to do here? Teach each other manners? And no, this isn't some sort of dig at Kpt. Lehmann. He is not the only person here who considers permissions to be important, and just because his permissions carry a great deal more weight than most, that doesn't mean his opinion should be singularly attacked when he is not the only person who agrees with it. And besides, having considered this from all angles, there is one situation in which the ability to deny permission might be a good thing in my opinion too.

That particular situation is when a mod is still in development. If someone took hold of my OLC GUI mod right now and declared that they were using it as a base to create the OLC GUI V2, while I am still working on V1.1, then that would p!ss me off. It's the only situation I can think of where I would be annoyed at someone (yes, even an "enemy") for using my work. In all other circumstances, I would only be able to view it as a compliment.

My £0.02.

This thread is ridiculous

:()1::()1::()1::()1::()1:

Ah, Mr Chairman, as this thread is sucking all the oxygen out of the air and has run its course several pages ago, I move that the thread be closed on the grounds that it is contributing heat, not light, and has nothing to illuminate yet anyway.

Yep. I think we're done here.