SUBSIM Radio Room Forums

SUBSIM Radio Room Forums (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/index.php)
-   General Topics (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/forumdisplay.php?f=175)
-   -   Julian Assange arrested (merged) (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=177756)

Platapus 12-12-10 06:24 PM

Crikey, now we have Openleaks.org. They will be coming out of the woodwork soon. :nope:

http://www.cnn.com/2010/TECH/web/12/...val/index.html

Quote:

The founders of Openleaks.org say they are former WikiLeaks members unhappy with the way WikiLeaks is being run under Assange.
Swell, just swell. :nope:

Skybird 12-12-10 06:46 PM

Good!

There need to be a wide variety of platforms working independent from each other, because governments will try to crack down on them and to shut them down. But the more options informants have, the better the chances that they and publishing platforms as well will survive and will not become intimidated.

Governments will also try to remain even more stealöth and secretive and conspiratory than they already are, in order to avoid further leaks. But governments should not feel safe from the people, but they should fear them.

Jimbuna 12-12-10 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by privateer (Post 1552507)
The U.S. would have to wave the Death Sentence for the Crime.
I can't recall the last time any Nation turned someone over that might face Death.
:hmmm:

Actually.....that is an excellent point :hmmm:

goldorak 12-12-10 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird (Post 1552515)

Meanwhile:

Manipulating the Political Dwarfes of Europe

So depressing true.

What a surprise not. :down:
Europe wants to play in world affairs on the same level as the US, but it doesn't have unity. Political unity. And political unity cannot come without a common defense strategy, and that means basically shutting down NATO which has long outserved its purpose. And now its only role is that of keeping an american beachhead in the european palaces of power.
De Gaulle was so right on so many issues and yet so widly misurderstood. And now Sarkozy l'americain wants France to reintegrate fully into NATO. What a waste of a man. Europeans have to put european interests before american interests, our politicians fail to understand this simple concept.

goldorak 12-12-10 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by privateer (Post 1552507)
The U.S. would have to wave the Death Sentence for the Crime.
I can't recall the last time any Nation turned someone over that might face Death.
:hmmm:

Europe doesn't have the death penalty, and no european country is going to turn over a man to the US authorities so that he can be executed in the US.

Skybird 12-13-10 08:19 AM

The point of it all. That'S why in case of doubt I line up with Wikileaks and similar organisations and demand journalists being not threatened by laws to make them reveal their sources. You cannot form a personal qualified opinion, you cannot have something like "public opinion", without free speech and free media.

The free press serves a constitutional service of absolutely essential importance for democracy

Is Treason a Civic Duty?

A Commentary by Thomas Darnstädt

Since 9/11, press freedom in the West has come under attack as governments argue that national security is more important than transparency. But the hunt for WikiLeaks is a greater danger to democracy than any information that WikiLeaks might reveal.

Why do we need freedom of the press? The framers of the United States Constitution believed that such a guarantee would be unnecessary -- if not dangerous. There are freedoms that we don't secure through promises, but which we take for ourselves. They are like the air we breathe in a democracy, whose authority is built on public opinion. The democracy that was founded on the basis of such insights is the American democracy. It is an indication of the American revolutionaries' healthy mistrust in the power of this insight that they would later incorporate freedom of the press into the US Constitution after all.

Today, more than 200 years later, this old idea seems naïve to all too many people in the Western world. Since becoming embroiled in the war against terrorism, the US government has transformed itself into a huge security apparatus. The Washington Post recently reported that 854,000 people in the US government, or more than one-and-a-half times the population of Washington, DC, hold top-secret security clearances -- and this under a president who came into office promising a new era of openness in government. An estimated 16 million government documents a year are stamped "top secret," or not intended for the eyes of ordinary citizens.

In the crisis, the countries of Old Europe are also putting up the barricades. Germany's constitution, known as the Basic Law, has a far-reaching guarantee of press freedom and was created after World War II on behalf of the US liberators and in the spirit of the American and French revolutions. But in the 10th year after the 9/11 attacks, one German conservative politician has even pondered whether it might not be a good idea to prohibit journalists from reporting on terrorism in too much detail.

Such people would have been beheaded in revolutionary Paris and probably locked up in Philadelphia. When citizens were revolutionaries, the act of demanding freedom of speech was a revolutionary act. Today, in more peaceful times, we would characterize freedom of speech as a civic virtue.

Playing with Fire

But then along comes someone who is still playing the part of the revolutionary. Julian Assange, the founder of the whistleblowing platform WikiLeaks, is playing with the fire of anarchy. He is constantly threatening new, increasingly dangerous disclosures, which should indeed be of great concern to those affected. But the hatred he reaps in return is beneath all democracies.

In countries that have enshrined the right to free speech in their constitutions, it has until now been taken for granted that disclosures of confidential government information must be measured by the yardstick of the law. Disseminating real government secrets has always been against the law, including in Germany. The journalist Rudolf Augstein, SPIEGEL's founding father, paid for the mere suspicion of having exposed state secrets by spending 103 days in custody in 1962, in relation to a SPIEGEL cover story on the defense capabilities of the German military. But because the courts abided by the law, and freedom of the press was ultimately considered to be worth more than politicians' outrage, it wasn't the press but the government that felt the heat.

But for those who have it in for Assange, it's more a matter of principle than of enforcing the law. The loudmouth from Australia offers a welcome opportunity to finally cast off the old ideas of press freedom as a right that we grant ourselves instead of allowing others to grant it to us. Aren't we all at war? Isn't it the case that citizens must, in fact, protect the state instead of spying on it?

The trans-Atlantic coalition of protectors of the state includes such diverse participants as the chairman of the US Senate Committee on Homeland Security, Joe Lieberman, who accuses anyone who publishes secret US diplomatic cables of "bad citizenship," and German Green Party Chairman Cem Özdemir, who says that WikiLeaks has "crossed a line that isn't good for our democracy." The need to portray oneself as a good citizen is particularly strong among certain journalists. Even the Süddeutsche Zeitung, which normally takes civil rights very seriously, chides that the WikiLeaks disclosures "destroy politics, endanger people and can influence economies." American journalist Steve Coll, who was awarded the Pulitzer Prize for his own exposés, rages against the activities of WikiLeaks, calling them "vandalism" and "subversion." The Washington Post, whose reporters Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein once exposed the Watergate affair, describes WikiLeaks as a "criminal organization."

Dark Time for Freedom

To critics, the most threatening aspect of WikiLeaks' "criminal" activities must be the fact that, so far, no one has managed to find a law that these whistleblowers have actually broken. The US Justice Department's attempt to invoke the controversial Espionage Act of 1917 shows how helpless the protectors of the law are as they flip through their tomes. The period of World War I was a dark time for constitutional freedoms in the US. In its practically hysterical fear of communists and all other critics, the judiciary even prosecuted people who distributed flyers critical of military service, and in doing so ignored all constitutional guarantees.

Even the post 9/11 period wasn't quite as bad. In 2005, when the New York Times planned to publish a story about an illegal global wire-tapping program operated by the US National Security Agency (NSA), the paper's senior editors were summoned to the White House to meet with then Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. The most powerful government in the world was forced to resort to moral pressure. Apparently no one knew of any legal justification for the government to bar the Times from going to press. Of course, the newspaper did ultimately publish what it had learned. Nevertheless, America survived.

Or was it the other way around? Did America survive precisely because the New York Times published what it knew?

The Importance of Ethics

A few days ago, Congressional legal experts issued a report warning against dusting off the Espionage Act, arguing that it isn't quite that easy to apply the prohibition on disclosing secret government information to hostile powers to disclosures in the press.

The only remaining option is to challenge the right of Assange and his much-feared organization to claim protection under the Constitution as members of the press. Should every hurler of data be afforded the same political status as the New York Times or SPIEGEL? Isn't it true that what legitimizes the work of the press is the responsible handling of data, as well as the acts of considering the consequences, applying emphasis and explaining the material?

That's the way it should be. The ethics of journalism is what makes the products of the press credible to readers. This is just as applicable to SPIEGEL as it is to its counterparts in New York and Washington. In fact, it should apply to anyone who deals with sensitive data. However, a look at the beginning of the story shows that no one but citizens themselves -- that is, the readers -- can answer the question of whether the standards were adhered to. The worst penalty they can impose is to simply not read a newspaper or a collection of data on the Internet.


Are Citizens Permitted to Disclose State Secrets?

WikiLeaks is as much an intermediary for the public sphere as every newspaper and every website. For Berlin constitutional law expert Dieter Grimm, it is clear that the whistleblower website enjoys "the protections for freedom of the press under Germany's Basic Law." As a judge on the German Constitutional Court in Karlsruhe, Grimm played a very important role in shaping the current interpretation of freedom of opinion and freedom of the press in Germany. The Constitutional Court itself has consistently emphasized that the task of disseminating information in an unimpeded manner is "clearly essential" to the functioning of a democracy.

There is no good or bad public sphere, just as there is no such thing as a bit of a public sphere. According to the German Constitutional Court, it is only the full- fledged ability of all citizens to have access to all information, at least in principle, which makes the formation of public opinion possible. And it is the unobstructed formation of public opinion that makes it possible to view the outcome of elections as being representative of the will of the people.

Is the state permitted to keep secrets from its citizens? Are citizens permitted to disclose such secrets?

The answer to both questions is very simple: Yes.

State Has No Private Sphere

Naturally the government is permitted to have secrets. It is part of the prudent behavior of every civil servant to prepare decisions in confidence, so as to prevent unauthorized individuals from thwarting the desired outcome in advance. This is no less applicable to the planning of foreign ministers' conferences than to plans to apprehend terrorists.

That's why it is also part of the responsibility of all politicians, civil servants and judges to keep an eye on sensitive information, as the case arises. This is all the more important because the government cannot depend on being able to operate in legally protected darkness. The state's privacy, as such, is not legally protected, and the state, unlike its citizens, has no private sphere. The rights of citizens deserve protection, but the government's internal affairs do not.

Only one politician in Berlin, Christian Ahrendt, the legal policy spokesman for the liberal Free Democratic Party's parliamentary group, had the courage to put the unpopular truth into words: "If government agencies don't keep a close eye on their data, they can't hold the press responsible after the event."

This is the answer to the second question: Just as it is legitimate for the state to keep information secret, it is legitimate for the press to publish information it has succeeded in obtaining from the belly of the state.

The Quality of a Democracy

This is difficult to comprehend, even for interior ministers, which is why Germany needed, once again, a decision from the Constitutional Court explaining the difference between breach of secrecy and disclosure. When the editorial offices of the magazine Cicero were searched in 2005, with the approval of then Interior Minister Otto Schily, because the magazine had reported on a confidential Federal Criminal Police Office (BKA) dossier, the investigators used a complicated argument to justify their charge against the editor responsible for the story. They argued that, although there is no specific law banning the publication of confidential official documents, it is a punishable offence for the BKA agents responsible for taking care of such documents to leak them. This meant that the journalist in question was an "accessory" to a punishable offence, if only by accepting the documents. And being an accessory to an offence is also an offence.

The Constitutional Court rejected this argument, noting once again the "absolutely essential importance" of press freedom for democracy. The press is allowed to print what it has obtained. With the very narrow exceptions in the realm of treason, this rule must apply in the press's handling of government secrets.

The case of Valerie Plame, the wife of an American diplomat who was exposed as a CIA agent by the syndicated columnist Robert Novak, shows that it is also firmly applied in the United States. It is a crime in both the United States and Germany to expose an agent of one's own government. But in the Plame case, reporters were only called to testify as witnesses. It was the government source, and not the reporters themselves, that was being prosecuted. Nevertheless, a journalist, Judith Miller, was arrested and spent three months in jail for refusing to reveal her sources. Even this sanction would be unthinkable in Germany, where journalists have the right to refuse to give evidence. Under the Basic Law, journalists, in the interest of the free disclosure of secrets, must even have the right to protect government sources.

In Germany, it was former Constitutional Court Judge Grimm who declared that a free press serves a constitutional purpose. This is not meant in a restrictive way, but entirely within the meaning of the framers of the US Constitution. If the state derives its democratic authority from citizens having comprehensive information, then providing information becomes a civic duty. And breach of secrecy becomes a mark of the quality of a democracy.

Catfish 12-14-10 04:30 AM

"Can the people with wikileaks be charged with espionage?:hmmm: "

Quote:

Originally Posted by Platapus (Post 1552494)
I assume you meant people at wikileaks

Yes they can. Now getting a conviction will be tough. But there is nothing preventing the US government from charging them with the crime

No they can not.

How can Assange be charged for "treason" when he is not even a US citizen, let alone someone who never swore an oath in the US military, or other services ? If an US non-governmental or non-military citizen publishes material of how illegal troops or the govenment acted, would or even could he be indicted with no oath sworn, being just an american journalist feeling bound to uncover lies ?
Why is there no reaction to what came to light, but just how to silence the messenger ??!!

First they would have to invent an indictment, for they have nothing they can accuse a foreign national like Assange with.

Second since when can any country demand from another, to deliver the citizen of another nation ? Assange is Australian.

Third if they want to re-invent the death penalty in the US as they had in WW1 against people who just said they did not like the war and demonstrated against it, no country with a democracy that takes itself serious will deliver anyone who might be executed, to said country.


Imagine Russia demanding the delivery of an australian spy, from Sweden and if Sweden would not bow kill him right there, or bring him over by a "Nacht und Nebel" action ?
And Assange is not the spy, he is a foreign journalist.
As said before people who publish atrocities have to be silenced ? This does tell more about the people who want to have him delivered than anything else.
:nope:

Thanks for your correction regarding this one point made by Ron Paul, and what about his other points ? This is a man who is concerned about democracy and the conduct of informing the citizens, as Jefferson saw it. This is a general question which also applies for Germany and other nations, with troops in Kosovo, Iran, and Afghanistan.

Greetings,
Catfish

P.S: b.t.w. those ddos attacks are no "attacks" but propaganda, by people who feel to have been fooled and belied.

Skybird 12-14-10 05:35 AM

Just to call back to mind some Wikileaks-Highlights of the past years.

2009, the Minton-Report. Wikileaks revealed an internal study of the company Trafigura which had successfully silenced The Guardian before (by legal means) to not publish it. The revelations showed how the company illegally shipped toxic waste to Africa and by that caused health harms to over 100,000 people, with around 20 people killed.

The same year, Wikileaks revealed an internal calculation of the German health ministry that showed that the Germasn were belied by the government over the costs of maintaining private insurance for healthcare, and switching to a new model of general health insurance. The real costs for this "reform", which translate into profit raises for private health insurrance companies, are much higher than being told to the public - and the ministry knew it. It lied to the peoplke: intentionally, and by pressure of lobby groups.

2008 Wikileaks revealed internal documents of Scientology which revealed the unscrupellous policies and idiotic teachings of this money-craving, people-abusing criminal commercial business company that tries to avoid persecution by the law by claiming to be a "religion".

2007, the Standard Operating Procedures for Camp Delta were published, showing practices at camp Delta which are in violation of the Geneva Convention and the International Human Rights.

2008, the publication of Palin's emails showed that she was using her private email accounts to avoid the duty to document any official communication traffic in her role as a public office holder, so that she could not be held legally responsible for any orders she gave via these "private" mails.

Wikileaks last year published the Climategate emails which are controversial but seemed to show some inconsitencies in the argument-forming of pro-Global Warming scientists.

2008 Wikileaks published the memberlist of the fascist British National party - and how much the British police is being infiltrated with BNP members. Illegal in Britain.

Add to this many dozens of publishings regarding other countries' internal issues which just did not get that ammount of international attention, and the infamous warlogs from Afghanistan and Iraq as well.

Organisations as Wikileaks are about much more than just Cablegate, or "Anti-Americanism".

onelifecrisis 12-14-10 10:27 AM

Assange was just granted bail.

onelifecrisis 12-14-10 10:34 AM

Can someone please explain to Mr. Dumbass here why - ostensibly - Sweden need to extradite Assange? So far as I can ascertain Assange is not actually being charged with anything (yet) and the Swedish authorities just want him "for questioning". Why do they need to extradite him for that? Don't they have phones in Sweden?

SteamWake 12-14-10 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onelifecrisis (Post 1553427)
Assange was just granted bail.

Heh did you see who offered to pay it :har:

onelifecrisis 12-14-10 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteamWake (Post 1553431)
Heh did you see who offered to pay it :har:

Various people, including one female friend of his who offered £150,000 ("all the money she has" apparently).

MaddogK 12-14-10 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteamWake (Post 1553431)
Heh did you see who offered to pay it :har:

That Pinko Michael Moore.
:haha::haha::haha:

Oberon 12-14-10 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onelifecrisis (Post 1553427)
Assange was just granted bail.

Apparently he's answering to an address somewhere up my way. I wonder where in this county he is... :hmmm:

onelifecrisis 12-14-10 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon (Post 1553478)
Apparently he's answering to an address somewhere up my way. I wonder where in this county he is... :hmmm:

Heh, could be right out in the hills somewhere!
Edit: Oh, Suffolk? Oops, for some reason I thought you lived in Derbyshire.

Something is well fishy here. He's agree to an electronic tag, his passport locked down, his location locked down, daily visits to the police, and over 200k in security/bail/whatever it's called, and yet the Swedish prosecution are challenging the decision?


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:53 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 1995- 2025 Subsim®
"Subsim" is a registered trademark, all rights reserved.