This video here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKAXKwnUTg0
May also be of interest.

Long story cut short, Almaz-Antey claim that:
- the weapon use was the old 9M38 round, no longer in service due to the end of life for the round (25 years, last missile made in 1986), the missiles in Russian inventory were dismantled, the fate of Ukrainian rounds is not known to Almaz-Antey, though the Ukrainian side did initiate negotiations in 2005 to prolongate the life of the 9M38 missiles in it's inventory.
- the missile approach direction was from the side, rather than from the front of the aircraft (due to the way fragments penetrated the internal bulkheads and how the left engine was dammaged), thus the probable launch area was different to the one originally claimed (snezhnoe).
- Almaz-Antey has conducted full sized experiments with both the warhead and the representative missile, to prove that their version (with a different missile approach vector) was correct and that the Dutch version was incorrect.

Really?
RT?
...
Until now I thought you're simply very..."patriotic".
I had no idea however that you are indeed nothing but a nationalist.

For those who are not so familiar with this propaganda network:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RT_%28TV_network%29
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RT
http://www.theguardian.com/media/2014/oct/30/rt-russia-todays-six-most-memorable-moment

Bah, RT doesn't hold a candle to Pravda or Izvestia... :O:

But yes, I must add my scepticism to Antays report, given Russias less than straight-forward stance on the matter of the incident.
That being said, the type of missile which detonated is an interesting point to examine, we can conclude in both reports that it is an older model of 9M317 (oddly prophetic when you look a the title of this thread) but honestly I'd be surprised if Russia didn't have some older models knocking around which were off the records, I mean Russia doesn't throw anything away, so it stands to reason that there could well be an older Buk system which was deemed expendable and thus given to the pro-Russian separatists along with minimal training.
Disaster soon followed. :dead:

I think if one was to assign any blame anywhere it would be to the separatists who fired the weapon, but you'll never find them. Russia has covered any tracks there are between it and weaponry that the pro-separatists suddenly materialise with, so there'll be nothing doing there. So chances are the report will point the finger at the pro-Russian separatists and there'll be lots of talk about proceedings at the Hague, but nothing will happen. I mean let's face it, no-one was ever punished for KAL007.

...or Iran Air Flight 655. In fact, the crew received medals...

Bottom line, Russia will never accept being treated differently than the USA, so no one will be punished.

Not to gang up on you, but...

First of all it doesn't matter a whole lot what missile it was, it matters what warhead it was carrying. The fragmentation pattern matched the 9N314 warhead, not the older 9N310 used in the early version 9M38 Missile. The 9N310's shrapnel was formulation has only cubes, and the damage on the aircraft shows clear butterfly shaped impressions (and they found butterfly shaped fragments in the wreckage), which only could have come from the 9N314 warhead. The 9N314 is used in later productions of the 9M38 missile, and the 9M38M1, and possibly the 9M318 which has an unknown warhead type (it is believed that it too can mount the 9N314 warhead as well). Russia has in service the later 9M38 missiles with the 9N314 warhead, along with the 9M38M1 and the 9M318.

The missile came from the front left from the perspective of the pilots, the damage done to the plane makes it patently clear, even if the estimated angle of impact is off a bit, it still would have had to come from the left hand side of the aircraft, which means the missile was fired from somewhere to the north west, which was territory held by the 'rebels' no matter how the details are massaged.

Ya I'm sure he did, but it doesn't matter, as unless he fired those missiles at a similar aircraft going the same speed and same altitude and hit at about the same angle, his experiments are nothing but worthless propaganda. The shrapnel pattern of the a static warhead will be totally different to one flying at supersonic speeds, due to momentum. If he can't even identify the right warhead, he has no hope at all of properly replicating the blast.

The whole article is absurd and yet another attempt (adding to a pretty long list now) of Russia's (Putin's really) attempts to cloud things. It's a shame, as cold war version 2.0 has started it seems (or perhaps it never quite ended).

Umm, the 9M317 is Russia's brand spanking new missile type for the Buk-2 launcher, there are no older versions ;)

Well other than relations between Russia and the West continuing to deteriorate, unfortunately. Otherwise ya... It is a real shame that Russia has gone back to a fascist/communist like dictatorship. Who knows how long it will take for the people to try to free themselves again.

That was a typo, meant to be Russian not Iranian. I don't doubt the rebels shot MH17 down by accident. I just don't think the missile system came from Russia shot it down then went back over the border. The rebels had these systems prior to the shoot down, they had used them against Ukrainian transports. Systems stolen from bases rebels had captured.

As a declaimer, I have used almaz-antey as interesting material to consider, especially as it disputes the missile orientation in regard to the aircraft by examining internal dammage paterns.
For example should the fragments be found in the passengers bodies or luggage, it would validate their theory.

RT was used as it was the readily availiable media that streamed the conference, I do not watch it, or any Russian TV channels for that matter otherwise. Maybe because I dont have a TV.

In the future, please criticise the arguments rather my humble person or the media I have used to present the material with.

I would write a detailed repply to any constructive arguments later.

Huh?

Yeah I do criticize this "media" (propaganda, actually) whenever someone brings it up.
You must be very well aware of what exactly RT is, so don't play dumb here.
From all the possible sources, you - the one who constantly defends his motherland on the virtual battlefield - uses RT as a source.

1+1 still equals 2 in my books, sorry.

Did RT in any way shape or form alter the original press conference footage? If no, how does the media used to provide video conference materials matter?

If you have arguments against the almaz antey materials themselves criticise them, not the media used, as otherwise you fall to a logical falacy of attacking the media, rather than the arguments presented in the conference.

Sad, but true. The public opinion is already formed and the reports wont change it.

@NeonSamurai
First of all, you should watch the video, as it explains all of those things. Here I would attempt to explain the stated Almaz-Antey position, the way I understand it.

Almaz-Antey specifically states than 9M38 life, with all extension was set to 25 years, with the last missiles produced in 1986 this means that the last missiles in Russian inventory were taken out of service in 2011. Now, those missiles could have went elsewhere post 2011, but they were not in service by that point and were going through scrapping.

The impact from the alternative direction (the one considered within the Almaz-Antey theory) would provide same external dammage patern, but would also explain the way internal structure of the aircraft, namely the frames, as well the dammage to the engine.
To prove this theory and to disprove the common one (with head on missile approach) Almaz-Antey had conducted both simulations and life fire tests.

The experiment itself was made in a such way, that the position of the missile and the aircraft would create a result that is representative of the fragment's performance under moving conditions. The method of the experiment is explained in the video, please criticise it directly.

I hope you would now watch the video and make detailed and constructive criticism, rather than bashing the arguments, attacking the source rather than the arguments and using ad Nazium.

What I find interesting about the whole coverage of the MH17 shoot down from the very beginning is the lack of official evidence concerning the supply of the Buk system from Russia to the rebel and back. I distinctly remember the US, I think it was Kerry state they had satellite images of the missile being fired, but they have never released them. The same concerning the Buk on the ground. All investigations that get quoted in the western press all seem to rely for a greater or lesser extent on bellingcat. He seems to be the go to boy now. Given I'd imagine the Ukrainian / Russian border is one of the most surveyed by recon says right now I'd be more happy to see their images rather than the geolocated stuff a former WoW player has come up with.

Well, American intelligence services...
They also found lots and lots of proof for all dem WMD in Iraq in 2002. :D

Ah...balls, I meant the 9M38. Too many numbers and letters. :haha: :/\\!!

Yes, but then they know exactly what WE do or write :yeah:
Which can be an advantage, i recently crashed my hard drive and i wonder.. maybe if i shape a polite question... :06:

I don't even know the difference between buk-1 and buk-2 except that buk-2 might be a newer model.

I believe the primary differences are in how they go boom and where they go boom.

Ah, buk-1 goes boom in the air and buk-2 goes boom somewhere in the air :doh:

Despite the denials of the rebels and Russia, the fact remains that the rebels claimed to have shot down a Ukrainian transport plane in the hour or do immediately after the crash and only when the identity of the aircraft was realised was this claim retracted and is now being decried as a fake by the rebel leaders.

Additionally the constant interference running by the Russians on this and the number of times their story has changed just add to the suspicion of involvement, even if it was simply a misidentified target that caused this sorry mess.

I'm seeing what looks like a duck, what sounds like a duck and most likely is a duck. Sorry Donetsk, but you're denials seem hollow.

Ukraine's pro-Russian rebels reject Dutch MH17 report - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34530906

This "fact" is actually, again, false, because the so called rebel reports came from a facebook fanpage, ie not actual rebels but pro rebel groups on the internet.

What actual interference did we conduct? We have provided all the required materials, regarding the possible BUK rounds used, as well their warheads.

I think Russia is trying to extricate itself from the situation. The shoot down and support of the rebels is an extreme embarrassment so they are trying to cover themselves. I'm sure the Kremlin know the rebels shot it down, I think it is the accusation of Russia supplying the Buk in question that has caused the various stories. I stand by the opinion it was a stolen Buk. The problem though was the likes of Strelkov and others connected to the Kremlin were on the scene. I wonder if there hadn't been this accusation if Russia's reaction would have been different. I'm wondering if there is going to be a few deals cut soon regarding Syria and the Ukraine situation.

Seriously though I think Yatsenyuk should shut up.