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-   -   Libyan No-Fly Zone res. passed by UN (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=181468)

Rockstar 03-20-11 03:47 PM
All well and good if it was 'the people' the Euro lead coalition was protecting. By the way who is leading this parade of shiny mesmerizing lights anyways? What too is the no-fly zone supposed to achieve if most of the action is on the ground and Hataphphy is alive still leading the way and crushing rebellion?

BOOM BOOM BOOM Bang ZAP zip zip zing! Look at the freedom and democracy come alive!

You do not INSTALL democracy.

Tchocky 03-20-11 03:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockstar (Post 1624112)
You do not INSTALL democracy.
That's why there won't be boots on the ground.

joegrundman 03-20-11 04:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tchocky (Post 1624129)
That's why there won't be boots on the ground.
yeah there will

joegrundman 03-20-11 04:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neal Stevens (Post 1623983)
Yes, I do. We are way past a point in history where regions of people should be held hostage by a non-democratic dictator. Western powers should not allow it. Let the people decide, and if they elect another Hitler, we deal with that when the time comes.


Incidentally, what actually defines dictatorship in your opinion? Is any non-democratic system a dictatorship? Yes.

Or is a dictator only a generalissimo like Gaddafi rather than absolute hereditary monarchies? Absolute hereditary monarchies? Thise still exist? Remind me again what millenium this is? :) No region of people should be subject to a leader or govt that they had no say in setting up. That's an absolute. That includes the Saudi dictators as well.

Are democratically elected figures that hold an anti-US stance also dictators? No, just nations who are hostile to the US's interests. At least the people made their choice and can be accountable for the consequences.

PS: I apologize for messing up your original reply, I hit EDIT instead of REPLY, very sorry. :cry:
my masterpiece! Gone forever!

Anyway, I admire consistency of viewpoint, although I personally am not convinced that voting democracy is necessarily the only worthwhile system. At present only one non-democratic country is making a good attempt at proper government, and that's china. And China has rather uniquely solved many of the problems facing non-democratic systems.

While I'm glad I come from a democratic background, most Chinese I meet are also quite content with their government, so long as it continues to come up with the goods. It will be interesting to see how it develops and it is good for humanity in a global sense to have competing systems.

Oberon 03-20-11 04:51 PM
I guess it all depends what you want out of life. How much freedom of expression you want. China is better now than it was under Mao, but if you say the wrong things to the wrong people then you'll still disappear.

Castout 03-20-11 05:00 PM
Imo it's probably best to arm the rebels with tanks, artillery and heavy weapons.

And start rolling into Tripoli. But much of the rebellion has been quelled by international prolonged DELAY to the necessary, legal and right action :DL


Well at least I can watch Gaddafi forces being decimated and scared for a change. It;'s probably best to bomb his army.

Fly zone or no fly zone he's going to be a source of problem to the West and to some Arab countries anyway after all this. Like it or not he's a changed man. Luckily he blamed Al-Qaeda for this and I think now would be his best time to embrace Al-Qaeda. Al-Qaeda is really a convenient excuse these days. Israelis used it now Gaddafi too. It's best for the international community to see him be ousted. Best for his people too more importantly. So I say bomb Gaddafi forces to pieces. Otherwise a clinging to power Gaddafi with his access to oil wealth could become a much potent threat than Osama Bin Laden that would probably make Osama to look like a Catholic church choir boy.

TLAM Strike 03-20-11 05:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockstar (Post 1624112)
You do not INSTALL democracy.
Japan 1947. ;)

Jimbuna 03-20-11 05:43 PM
Canadian Hornets heading for the Med:

http://forums.airshows.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=31656

Gerald 03-20-11 05:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbuna (Post 1624214)
Canadian Hornets heading for the Med:

http://forums.airshows.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=31656
Nice pic,:up:

Capt. Morgan 03-20-11 06:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbuna (Post 1624016)
...
There is still a niggling part in me that marvels at how selective governments are when deciding what civilians to protect. Definitely seems like you have more chance of 'protection' if your country has oil.

Places like Zimbabwe for example certainly don't.
It can certainly seem that way, though I like to hope that U.S. foreign policy is becoming more enlightened. Ethiopia had nothing but sand - and still, the U.S. interceded on behalf of their citizens in 2007. No oil in Bosnia-Herzegovina, either.

I remain dubious of the idea of oil being a significant motivator for American military actions. There are many nations that despise America, but there is no nation on this earth that despises the American Dollar.

If Gaddafi does manage to keep control of Libya, I'm sure he'll still sell America as much oil as it wants to buy - at competitive prices.

Gerald 03-20-11 06:27 PM
Doubtful, if he can manage in one piece, if it sells it to who has the fattest wallet, anyway everything is not just about oil

Skybird 03-20-11 06:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Castout (Post 1624182)
Imo it's probably best to arm the rebels with tanks, artillery and heavy weapons.
No. The risk that sooner or later those weapons are used against "us", is too big. Bomb them a pathway towards Lybian weapon storage sites, but stop this madness of delivering weapons into the third world and to failed states.

Has nobody ever nopticed that in Africa and the Middle East and South-East asia enemies shooting at Wetsern troops for some reason, or the civilian population, never do that with weapons from local production, but always with weapons from Europe, America, Russia and China?

Air war, okay, all nice and wel, as you say, bomb Gaddafi's forces to piecesl - but no own boots on the ground, and no weapon deliveries. Not now, not in the future. Let them use rocks and sticks, if they must.

The day when somebody in the West decides to send in ground troops beyond the special teams operating there for recce, is the day I will u-turn and be fully against this operation.

Oberon 03-20-11 07:07 PM
Looks like the US is going to hand over control over the operation to NATO or a UK/France coalition.

Please, for the love of god, don't hand it over to NATO. You know it will be screwed up in most ways possible and then some that aren't possible.
A UK/France coalition really isn't much better, but there's a bit less bureaucracy involved.

Armistead 03-20-11 07:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Castout (Post 1624182)
Imo it's probably best to arm the rebels with tanks, artillery and heavy weapons.

And start rolling into Tripoli. But much of the rebellion has been quelled by international prolonged DELAY to the necessary, legal and right action :DL


Well at least I can watch Gaddafi forces being decimated and scared for a change. It;'s probably best to bomb his army.

Fly zone or no fly zone he's going to be a source of problem to the West and to some Arab countries anyway after all this. Like it or not he's a changed man. Luckily he blamed Al-Qaeda for this and I think now would be his best time to embrace Al-Qaeda. Al-Qaeda is really a convenient excuse these days. Israelis used it now Gaddafi too. It's best for the international community to see him be ousted. Best for his people too more importantly. So I say bomb Gaddafi forces to pieces. Otherwise a clinging to power Gaddafi with his access to oil wealth could become a much potent threat than Osama Bin Laden that would probably make Osama to look like a Catholic church choir boy.
I would never arm them with US weapons. Do what we always do, go to another arab nation and get the weapons they need that are russian or china made. Like here in the US, we have to face the fact we're trading one group of crook nutheads with another.

Gerald 03-20-11 07:15 PM
There, I agree, they assume it will be more practical in this way, but highly doubtful


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