Tribesman - I posted at length about Jesus saying the law was not in abeyance. Your refusal to contemplate that answer - and instead try to push forward with a point of "reason" that has been shown to be fundamentally flawed, is simply further proof you don't want to discuss - you simply want to disagree.

So far:

#1 You have been challenged to produce sources - you refused.

#2 Presented with quotes from the Quran that demonstrated a point, you claimed they were "not in context", yet when invited to put them into context and defend them, you again were mysteriously silent.

#3 You now continue to try and push a point that had been dealt with - ignoring the discussion and rebuttals made.

A discussion is people looking at the facts presented and basing their arguments off of those after consideration. So far you have chosen to neither consider points made, nor demonstrate any of your own. Instead you make claims that "this happens among non-muslims", but give us no links to verify. You claim something is out of context, but provide none to back up that statement.

Ultimately - you choose not to discuss. As for Mullahs in Iran offering sex change operations - I would ask for a link showing that (as I can give one showing where Iran hung a couple of gays - which kind of ruins your statement..) - but you have already demonstrated that requesting sources from you is a waste of time.

Obviously you havn't looked then .

Thats because I generally don't post links until the point has gone way down the line , the way I see it is you have an internet connection use it yourself if you want to learn more .
Oh come on that is just so easy to find , just like the "honour" killings are .

yep - thats the point - cant actually provide any sources yourself can you.

Ya know - if you say something happened - and can't back it up - its simply opinion. And your entitled to your opinion - even when its wrong.

If your serious about a discussion - document your points. Otherwise - your simply typing out your own hot air.

As for expecting others to do your work for you - not happening. You want me to consider something - show it to me. Its your point - not my job to prove it - thats yours.

So you would like a link to a news article or several about a Coptic Christian killing his sister for dishonouring the family ?
Damn thats hard to find , not as hard as the sister was to find though as it took two years for them to find and kill her .
Now of course it would be juicier if the brother killed his sisters bloke too and perhaps their infant child but really that would be too much to expect wouldn't it.
But of course someone mentioned earlier that an honour kiling has to involve the family so I suppose the story would have to be more than just the brother so should include the fathers role in the murder of his daughter to be really called as a classic example , with perhaps the uncle driving them to and from the murder just to put the icing on the cake .
Oh its so hard to find an example to fit that scenario isn't it :rotfl:
(though I did think the Maronite example would come out higher on the search)

Haplo, why are you still wasting your time with this troll? ;) His intention is clear, and his means are clear, too. And each time you react to him, he is giggling.

Even though there fewer inducements in the New testament to slaughter people...the the folks who were brought us the Inquisition, witch burnings, forced conversions, Charlemagne's massacres of Saxons, and many more crimes, these people were Christians. I guess we're fortunate that the New Testament is not layered with incitements to persecute non-Christians...for most of the last 2000 years, Christians sure held up their own without those orders.

From Copernicus to gay bishops... it appears to be trending to mainstream to me. My point is, although currently there is no Islamic parallel to " accept external political movements in general" (well described, btw). But there may be someday, who knows? Christians eventually calmed down and became sane, who's to say Muslims won't with enough education and Big Macs? I guess we have to disagree, but neither of us can say it will or will not happen, only time will tell.

Apparently so - since you cant post it:rotfl:

Skybird - I am just giving him every opportunity to show how foolish he is - because I am laughing at him as well.

BTW - interesting take on Jesus and the church - in some ways I agree with you - the "church" has grossly perverted the true teachings of Christ in so many ways.

http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=28206

Although I don't see how that proves or dispoves anything. Religous people of all stripes have committed these type of crimes. I don't see any point in denying that Muslims appear to have the lead in this area.

Neal,

Let's make a deal. If you lock this thread, I will make another donation to Subsim.com

Neal,

You said one very important thing there - "only time will tell.". The key here is that yes, Xtianity has its history of violence, one that it is correctly saddened by. But we are not living in history - we are living in the here and now - and are currently the TARGETS of a religion that preaches hatred and violence.

Neither you or I can change history with all it holds. What we must deal with is the here and now. The here and now means we face a threat to our way of life from Islam - purely because it has not "moderated" or "matured" or whatever you want to call it. 200 or 2000 years from now - who knows what any religion will look like if humanity is still here - but if we do not stand firm against the threat that is here - in our time - at our doorstep - that is out to destroy us - it won't matter much will it?

It has been posted before in this thread - and its so correct. Islam is not about the hereafter as much as it is about the physical realm. Its as much a POLITICAL path to power thru force as it is "religious theology", if not more so. This is why it has not moderated - because the easiest way to power has always remained force. Brainwash the weak to be your violent cronies - and go take over. Structure the system so that there can be no questioning or dissent (leave and you get killed), and poof, your on your way. Look at the various militias throughout the troubled areas in the ME. Each has their own agenda - and each is often more POLITICAL than it is religious. If they were all in it just to follow the Will of Allah - they wouldnt be killing innocents and their political opponents in the streets.

This is why Islam is a threat - it purports to be a religion - and perhaps at its base it is, After all - most wars in this world have been religious in nature, or used that as a cover, historically. Yet ultimately it is simply a VERY machivellian political path to power, used for centuries, and even today, by those who would dictate to everyone they can how they can live. This is why our way of life is anathema to the LEADERSHIP of "true" Islam - because our way of life is everyone has basic rights, and a voice in their own lives. That didn't sit well with the warlord mohammed, and it doesn't sit well with the warlords today who follow the islamic path.

Whaa? If I offended you, I apologize. I thought the discussion was going ok :(

It was meant rather tongue-in-cheek :D

no your posts were not offensive, it just seems like the same things being posted again and again and the argument does not seem to have anything to do with the original topic and is starting to just focus on ad hominem attacks.

I'm right beside you on resisting extreme Islamic movements. I just don't think all Muslims are extreme. If fact, I know they are not. I know Muslims who ignore the violent passages in the Koran, just like Jews who are not Orthodox, and Christians who are not handling snakes or speaking in tongues.

Oh, ok. Whew!

You're right, forum debates usually take on this pattern. :salute:

Yeah, you're right - we don't know. We clearly disagree on our predictions, but really ... neither of us have a crystal ball and I think we both are able to substantiate and support our arguments.

I like debates when, in the end, there's no way to clearly identify who is right and wrong. Makes for a good flexing of our abstract-thinking muscles.