Incomplete text, I have to re-work on it. Wait for my answer.

I would like to check the quote by myself. Can you give me a link to your source please ?

And how could Hitler justify the invasion of Poland if the Polish Government had accepted the negotiations ??

Maybe, maybe not. All was depending on the Polish behaviour. Why did she* refuse such reasonable proposals ?

* : sorry for my bad english, i really dont know if i'm allowed to say "she" for the Poland :oops:[/QUOTE]

Not necessarly, as I'm going to explain.

Yes, it's common in English to use "she" for anything from a possession (car, boat, guitar) to a country.

You know, just a thought. We all have in our memory some Hitler's speech where he is speaking, or rather yelling like a hysterical man. But this is very misleading. Privately, he was not a fool, but a affable man, peaceful and balanced in his language. He was also very cultured. He had just a passion for Germany. That such a man wanted to put to fire and sword Europe is hardly conceivable. But you will say that he concealed his intentions. I answer : too easy.

On the other hand, he had a certain contempt for the Slav peoples, I agree (though some Slavic people have a very germanic appearance !). He was ready to impose his conditions for Poland. But this didn't justify a war to the death ! :down:

You mean this one I quoted below?

I don't think you'll have too as it's easily found online:

source: http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v08/v08p389_Hitler.html
(it's about halfway down the page more or less)

Peace is not possible when injustice is not solved. War is the last argument when the opponent doesn't want to listen anything.

http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2016/...9013890287.png

I would like to recall some facts :

- On 24 October 1938, the German Foreign Minister, Joachim von Ribbentrop, explained to the Polish Ambassador Lipski the foundation for German-Polish agreement to solve the problem.

http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2016/...9013890283.png

- On January 5, 1939, Hitler personally met the Polish Foreign Minister Josef Beck. Although being very clear on the fact that Danzig was German, would always remain German, and sooner or later return to Germany, the Führer showed himsef very consilient and insisted that he wanted to find a solution "that would take into account the respective interests of the two countries" (communication with east Prussia is as important for the Reich as communication with the sea for Poland). M. Beck remained very evasive.

http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2016/...9013890284.png

- On January 16, the Polish Ambassador in New York informed Josef Beck that, according to a member of the American president's entourage, this one wanted France and England to "put an end to any political compromise with totalitarian states, and to not involve with them in any discussions with the aim of territorial modifications." He also gave an assurance that the US were "actively preparing for war - 1.25 billion dollars - and they were ready, in case of war, to intervene actively on the side of England and France." This letter would strengthen Poland's intransigence. (Le Livre Blanc Allemand, n°3, "Documents polonais relatifs à l'Histoire des origines de la guerre")

- On March 26, 1939 : the Polish ambassador in Berlin had clearly answered to Ribbentrop : "Any continuation of this German projects, particularly with regard the return of Danzig to the Reich would mean war with Poland."

- On April 28, 1939, Hitler left the door open for discussion by declaring : "If the Polish Government desires to reach a settlement of new contractual relations with Germany, I would answer this desire, provided however that such a regulation is then based on an absolutely clear obligation and urging the two sides to the same extent. Germany is in any case very willing to assume such commitments and then to fulfill them. "

- The invasion of Poland was scheduled on August 26. But the day before, Britain and Poland formally signed an unconditional mutual assistance pact (military assistance in case of aggression). Then, Hitler ordered Marshal Keitel to stop immediately all military preparations because he needed time to negotiate.- The Führer then summoned the British ambassador in Berlin. After telling him that the German-Polish problem had to be resolved and that it would be, he charged him to convey to his Government, his willingness to reach a treaty of friendship with England. The response from England came only on August 28th late evening. The English government posed as a precondition for any agreement the peaceful resolution of the German-Polish dispute. Hitler replied the next day in the late afternoon. Although skeptical, he accepted the principle of direct conversation with Poland. After repeating that he doesn't want to prejudice the vital interests of this country, nor to question the existence of an independent Polish state, he demanded the coming of a Polish plenipotentiary for the next day on August 30, stressing that Germany should submit proposals for a solution acceptable to him. See HunterICX's post with the 16 points.

In his memories, the translator who assisted Hitler in his conversations with strangers wrote :

"By reading [the 16 proposals], I didn’t believe my eyes [...]. Such proposals were inspired by a spirit that had little common with the National Socialist methods and ideas from Hitler during countless previous interviews. This was really a project which bore the mark of the League of the Nations." (Paul Schmidt, Sur la scène internationale. Ma figuration après de Hitler. 1933-1945 (éd. Plon, 1950), pp. 217-8.)

- The day of 30 August passed without a Polish plenipotentiary came. Anxious however to leave one last chance to his neighbor, Hitler delays again the attack on Poland (24 additional hours).

Is this the attitude of a man who is wanting a war ?

- On August 30, around midnight, J. von Ribbentrop received the British ambassador. This one informed him that "The British Government was not able to recommend to the Polish Government to accept this procedure". So, it was clear that Britain would not safeguard peace.

--> Until the end, Hitler was in favor of direct negotiations between powers, including Poland ! But the polish plenipotentiary never came ...

- On September 1, the German armies penetrated in Poland. However, world peace was not dead. A simple local conflict had begun, as there had been so many in 50 years, and nothing required it to escalate into global conflict.

*

The August 29th proposal couldn't have been a genuine attempt to secure peace. It was presented to the British, rather than the Polish, and was supposed to have somehow made its way from Germany to Britain to Poland and brought back a Polish negotiator within a very limited time frame, making it more of an ultimatum than an actual attempt to negotiate. It was presented much too late to stop the invasion in any case. The secret protocol of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact had practically completely sealed Poland's fate, and the German army received its orders for the invasion over a week beforehand. The invasion was supposed to have started on August 26th before being delayed by the signing of the Polish-British defense treaty, since Hitler wanted more time to attempt to ward off French and British involvement in the conflict. Some units of the German army had actually started moving towards their objectives on the 25th before they were recalled (in fact, some of them weren't).

EDIT: That's a curious way to put it since Germany had withdrawn from the League of Nations years beforehand. In any case, he's right, it does have little in common with Hitler's ideas because it wasn't supposed to have been accepted.

This is exactly the attitude of a man who wants to legitimize his war. If he had wanted peace, he'd not have signed an agreement with the Soviet Union to divide Poland or given the order to launch the invasion ahead of time and used actual diplomacy rather than hasty ultimatums to achieve his goals. As for it being a 'simple local conflict', I'm sure the Polish would have seen themselves as a worthy sacrifice in the name of global peace.

Poland didn't want to hear anything. And Britain did nothing to calm the situation.

Because the signing of the Polish-British defense treaty was a total surprise. Britain knew that Hitler was determined to solve the corridor problem, one way or another. A conflict between Poland and Germany should NOT have requiered war between Germany and Britain/France.

Yes, in case of invasion only. So if Germany and USSR invaded Poland, this is the fault of Britain/Poland/USA who didn't want to leave the possibility for Germany to solve this scandalous fact of her country cut in 2 parts, without communication. --> So we can say that Britain/USA wanted the war against the Third Reich. Poland was an excuse, and She was the victim of her own pride.

About France this is a little more complexe ...

*

Game, set and match I believe.

Really Raptor1, do you think that Hitler would have made so reasonable proposals if he wanted a war ? If Poland didn't accept, that was not because of exagerate german proposals. Impossible.

http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2016/...9013890283.png

On the contrary ! It was a non-agression pact ! And if really Britain/France defended Poland, then they shouldn't have declared war on Germany, because USSR was also guilty. What justice for Poland ? A half one is not justice.

Fahrenbohn, what kind of kool-aid are you drinking? Hitler was not "reasonable." He outright killed millions of his own countrymen for a hobby. His non-aggression pact with Russia was a transparent ploy to hold them at arms length until he was ready to attack them.

He was a psychopathic madman, a traitor to his own country, a ruthless killer of those who would have been his chief support, a man so stupid that he made not one fatal mistake (our peronal quota), but dozens of mistakes that absolutely guaranteed his complete defeat and the destruction of the nation he pretended to lead.

In fact, Germany was only a pawn in a game to make Hitler a "big man." He didn't give a rat's patootie whether Germany lived or died. In fact he sentenced the entire nation to death at the end and only the purposeful failure of better men to execute Hitler's suicidal orders kept it from happening.

His was a fantasy world of Valhalla and all kinds of mythological mumbo jumbo where he was a foolish, psychopathic, murderous and self-crucifying god. He was an idiot. He richly deserved to die as horribly as possible. Hiding in a hole and being the instrument of his own destruction was pretty appropriate. Wish the Russians had got hold of him though. They would have known what to do with a petty criminal.

It is only because they were defeated by better nations that instead of ceasing to exist as a nation and becoming the just spoils of conquest, as would have happened to his enemies if Hitler had won, the United States and allies at great expense rebuilt Germany, set her up on her own two legs and walked away to let her become a 100% legitimate citizen of the nations of the world. Germany is a better country today because she lost World War II.

And yet there are those here in this forum who fantacize about the glorious times when German citizens were put in cages to be worked to death, and if that didn't work, to be shot or gassed, their gold teeth extracted, their jewelry collected, cataloged and warehoused, their property confiscated all by a man with Jewish ancestry: Hitler. These were the very same Jews who stood steadfastly behind Germany in the first world war and contributed finances toward that effort far out of size to their numbers, the very people who would have been important support in the war. But all leaders must have a hobby, don't they? Surely this is reasonable conduct for a great leader. I have some very dry land in the Florida Everglades I'll let you buy for a very low price.

Hitler was the embodiment of evil. There was no love in that man. He made no agreements he was bound to keep. Everything was about himself and everything else was expendable. He was most evil for the nation he pretended to lead, guard and love. Failure to see that fact is evidence that the cognitive abilities of his apologists do not deserve the respect of debate or even a civil greeting. Engaging in any manner of conversation with these morally bankrupt aplogists is inappropriate and useless. They can only be repudiated.

Maybe he's surprised that Hitler made so generous proposals to a people in whom he had little respect.

But let's admit that Poland had accepted Hitler's deal. Then, Hitler would have had no more pretext to invade Poland ...

I have a very different point of view. I think rather that Staline made his best shot with this "non-agression pact". He exclaimed himself after the signing : "I cheated Hitler !" Now, russian borders were common with german ones, and the communism was ready to conquere Europe.

Let's see his face on this picture during the signing :

http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2016/...9013890427.png

I'm sure all this is pure fantasm. No sorry, I know it.

Can you blame them, considering what happened to Czechoslovakia?

It would have required one between Germany and Poland, though, and it's Germany who unilaterally made the demands and the decision to invade. Britain and France weren't willing to allow Germany to attack Poland without consequence, so I supposed it would have required a war between those nations as well.

Of course it was in case of invasion only. It was signed under the assumption that the invasion would have taken place. The German army was already under orders to launch the operation when it was signed.

How reasonable the proposal was is irrelevant, because it wasn't a proposal at all. It was delivered under conditions that would not have allowed it to be signed. The Germans demanded (from the British ambassador in Berlin) that the Polish send a negotiator with full powers to Berlin within a single day, and no attempt was made to continue negotiations with more time or under other conditions. Moreover, it was delivered after the decision to invade has been made and, in many ways, already put into motion.

The Pact, and particularly its secret protocol, covered more than non-aggression. As for justice, I wasn't talking about that in the slightest, just about who started the war. Of course, the time for getting justice should have been at the Munich Agreement.

Which is exactly why it was delivered in the way that it was. Hitler wanted a pretext to invade Poland. That is also why deception operations like the attack on the Gleiwitz radio tower took place.

Finally we're getting somewhere.

HITLER WAS NICE TO HIS DOG, GUYS.

You wouldn't know "fantasm" (sic) if it bit you on the patootie. What you know is not relevant to reality. Thank God you are in charge of nothing. I would not believe you if you told me what you had for lunch.

If you and your vaccuous brained buddies ever develop brain cells and organize to recreate the "glorious past" we will have to ensure you share Hitler's fate. Unlike you and your ilk, we will not enjoy it. But you can remember it to your grave. It shall not happen again, no matter what the cost. Rats must be exterminated.

Because Poland was responsible of maintaining this injustice. Thus war was legitimate.

Yes, because there was no hope to do elsewhere. All negociations were refused, and even considered as a war declaration by Poland !

Hey ! Germany tried to negociate since 1937 ! NOW, it was Poland who had to prove her peace desire ! Only Poland could still prevent the invasion, the timer had started. Hitler had already been enough patient.

I think I've given sufficent evidence to prove the contrary. No wait, I have yet many other things to say in fact ! Wait for the next posts !

I think that this fake was destinated only to the public opinion. Time of information, so time of propaganda !

So to avoid war you have to prove you want peace - and if a neighboring country invades it's your fault for not proving you didn't invite them?

Turn off the computer. This is a waste of everyone's time and you know it.

In our case : if a neighboring country has stolen you something, and she refuses that you use it, is it unfair that you invite yourself in her home to recover it ? NO

Bye.