I've been following that story on a different site and was wondering what the outcome was going to be. Will be interesting to see how this all plays out. Thanks for the link:up:

A lot can happen in 30 days. A lot can happen in 30 seconds. Just watch a football game. It is not over yet. As of late, the Obama skeletons are coming out of the closet. Perhaps the big guns are being pulled out by the McCain campaign? I'm thinking yes. You watch, Palin is going to be the attack dog that VP's are supposed to be. She started this weekend. I find it odd that Rezko will not be arraigned until after the election. Does he know something? McCain/Palin just need to leave that taste of doubt in the voters minds. Hell, some still think Obama took the oath of office on the Koran. Now these very same folks hear he started his political career in a domestic terrorist livingroom. Some reports say America knows this already. I did not know this until yesterday. So, Obama was courting a known domestic terrorist that not only talked about bombing but actually carried it out. He got off on a technicality. Will Obama court other terrorists with big hugs from the White House. Bubba the beer drinker will not like that at all. The big gun of the Rev Wright debacle is not over yet either. Welcome to old age and treachery. There is a good possibility it will win out again.

Francis Schaeffer.

An open question. What effect have Obama's interactions with Ayers had upon his political beliefs?
Surely this is the question that needs answering, not vague mumblings about "associations".

Doh! I should have put that together.

Let me ask you though. Do you equal calling for violence the same as actually committing violence? That is after all the difference between Shaeffer and Ayers...

IMO both of them ought to be in jail.

I was responding to your comments on Jeremiah Wright calling for violence, not Will Ayers.
The focus of Obama's associations, such as Wright and Ayers, have often left out the most obviously important part - the influence on the man running for President.

That's the whole point of bringing up their associations. His 20 year association with Rev. Wright we know about and i'd venture to say that even you can hardly say that this is a trifle.

As for Ayers, Obama has known the guy for, what, almost a decade now? Maybe he doesn't share Ayers more radical agendas (neither does Ayers unless we should hear he's taken up planting bombs again) but I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the possibility they share ideology and that is something that shouldn't be swept under the party rug.

I would be highly concerned if Senator Obama shares the same kind of ideology as Ayers. So is there any evidence to suggest such an idea be they statements made by Obama or his voting record or anything else for that matter? If so I would love to see it. If not then all we have here is a classic case of guilt by association which should have no bearing on which way people vote. :hmm:

Here's a question.

If one candidate wants to fundamentally change the country, would a comment like that get a lot of people offside? Changing things is one thing, but at a fundamental level??

I was reading through an Aussie report of the latest debate and came across this snippet:

"In order to change the dynamics of this race, we anticipate that McCain will launch his nastiest attacks and continue to lie about Barack Obama's record and his vision to fundamentally change our country." - Bill Burton, Spokesman for Sen. Obama.

Exactly what is he looking to change... I've not seen any detailed plans, just plenty of sweeping statements without much information backing them up. That's from both sides, and common in politics, but what does he want to fundamentally change?!

In the context:

Some interesting FYI
 

Very convenient and misleading way that you have packaged it there. You guys can pin the blame on each other (left and right/Dems and Repubs) all you like. The brutal truth is that both parties have failed your country. Both sides have failed the test of bipartisan leadership. So who is going to have the balls to put aside such BS partisan hackery?

That will never happen. It is a pipe dream. All that we have seen in the past will continue on. It does not matter who is in the driver seat.

Konovalov,

if I see one constant in american culture, then it is an irresistable tendency to polarize and to think in dualistic, always two antagonistic absolutes.

A historian or political analyst from the UK that I once saw on TV talking about this, said with a fine sense of humour: "The United States consists of exactly two states." :lol:

Damn right he was! And nicely put it he has!

The reason things don't change, is that instead of having a real choice as a two party system, although there is a third Independent party that is ignored by the press purposefully, but if you look at it reguardless, it really isn't two parties, it's a single party with two heads. And until the people consolidate and really strive for change in the elected leadership, it is going to continue to be business as usual.

Things will never change
 

And that is a fact. George Washington was not a member of any party, he did not like the idea of having political parties. They knew back then there would be problems down the road.

Another problem is voters dont vote out the worst and most corrupt, why? They (incumbents) have to much power. The Republicans under Bush for 6 years abused there power and know the Democrats want there share. This Democratic congress is probably the worst in history and the Republicans before them were down right nasty and not much better.

And btw, for the first time in history europe did something together, lower interest rates. Not bad.

The thing is we defended europe during the coldwar and during that time there was a unspoke rule. The european strategy going back into the 80s was to surpass the US economically, while we spent our money on there defense they could work on there economy. Well it worked, the Euro know is worth more then the dollar. When dollar went down in value, purchases went down, production went down. So ultimately the plan worked to surpass the US, but it has back fired, the US matters more then you like. Unless europe overtakes the US in spending and purchasing the Euro cannot be worth more then dollar, that is why we are here today aswell.

Very true, and it drives me crazy when I see Washington labelled as a member of the Federalist Party. He was a federalist in the same way Adams and Madison were - he saw the necessity for a stronger central government. And yet - and this is the only bad thing I've ever had to say about him - he sat and watched as his two leading cabinet members squabbled and fought and laid the foundations for the first parties, and then let Hamilton railroad him into following Federalist policies.

Likewise Adams. He's called a Federalist as well, because they got him elected, but they turned on him when he ignored them and followed his own path (and wisely so), and it was them who got him unelected again.

I hate parties. Unfortunately the parties are the only ones with the money and the organization to actually get their people into positions of power.

Biggest problem is, they have too much power. The power gained by the Fed during the FDR administration should be removed and the states returned to their rightful positions. With more power than the Fed.

A good book out recently about the era is this one.

http://books.google.com/books?id=sOC...+forgotten+man

I started reading it last year, but my daughter borrowed it for school, and her teacher borrowed it, and I never saw it again. So I need a new copy, but just haven't gotten around to it yet.

But to me, no political party or force is supposed to be that strong in the US of A as it creates a imbalance in the proportion of power that the founding fathers were all too well aware of, and they took every step to avoid having it happen to their creation of the republic. But eventually corruption and self-ambitious men will alter and twist even that which is meant to stop them, and they will turn it to their advantage by interpretation instead of direct definition.

As great John McCain said the other day, "Well, my fellow prisoners..."



I voted in the this poll that McCain-Palin will win because it asked WHO I THINK will win.

I think they will win because:

1. it's the undecided voters who decide the election and they seem to be quite easily swayed by "bumper sticker" politics, and not by real issus. GOP are masters of that.
2. GOP have shown in the past 8 years they are ready to do whatever it takes to stay in power. In event of it looking like Obama is gonna take it I won't be surprised that Bush 'suspends election in time of financial crisis', or makes current crisis 'worse' to come to that. I wouldn't be surprised if they start a war on Iran. I would not be surprised by them doing anything that would seem like elections shouldn't be held right now.
3. Palin is has reignated the scary mix of bigotry-high school mentality in many voters. Thes guys are energized and will go and vote.

just look here! This is at one of their rallies in Ohio. Thanks sarah palin for bringing out the best in amerika! say it aint' so joe.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjxzmaXAg9E

4. Personal attacks on Obama will take toll on election day - they will play the race card without ever calling it so ('he's a muslim, he's terrorist friend -- well that's enough, eh?)
5. Even reasonable people will be scared off into thinking 'yeah, obama is good but mccain is experience and we need that' and will vote anyway for mccain even though deep down they like obama more may be.


Bottom line.. US won't elect obama cuz he's black. You may say all you like about this is not about race, but while may be people in 20s and 30s have moved on, people in 60s I don't think did (in places where news dont get much to, i.e. central part of US, all the Idaho's and Wyomings).

The guy is very good, he is smart. And yet he is struggling to beat what essentially is an old, senile, angry and impulsive man and a manipulative radical bitch.

It sickens me to my stomach that Palin will be a 72 year olds heart beat away from presidence. I am scared of this woman. She is a disgrace to america and a testament of its public education system. If i could vote, I'd be on a phone, calling everyone and making sure that these war mongers and racist in face of McCain and Palin don't ever get to white house.

In fact, I think neither of them are fit to be filling up the seats they take right now. Palin is a jew hating radical as seen in her videos in her church, while McCain i think is just mentally not there anymore.

Obama and Biden have their issues, but OMG they are at least qualified to do the job. McCain needs to go into retirement, Palin needs to go coach little league.

it's not that he's "not there"anymore, i don't think.
He's definitely "there" - but it's a different "there" than his media image would tell us.

I believe that he sees war as a first-line instrument instead of a resource, I see his ideas on foreign policy couched in a phase of terminal adolescence, and his almost total disinterest towards domestic policy makes the stuff he does care about that much scarier.

http://outtheotherear.wordpress.com/...-im-not-crazy/

This is America Michele Obama was ashamed of. Fack if I knew that mojority of USA is like THIS, then I'd say they deserve McCain/Palin.

if you watch this you'll think its some nazi germany or smth.