All good ideas but not what I meant. I should have been more specific.

How do you implement these ideas. How do you force any government to change when they don't want to. Voting only changes the players not the management. Lobbyists have more money than they can use. Big business and governments have a cosy relationship. This has already been discussed in this thread. Ducimus mentioned the four boxes, soap, ballot, jury and bullet.
Short of shedding blood and destroying property, what is there? That's what I meant by "any ideas"

Yeah, that's what most of us want.

"If elections would change anything, they would be forbidden".

Apart from that, some news just in - anyone remember the US sub 'Parche', or the wiretapping of the Ochotsk cable ?
Seem the USS Jimmy Carter is equipped to do exactly that, with the trans-atlantic glas fibre cables.
This was in 2001/2:
http://www.zdnet.com/news/spy-agency...a-cable/115877
http://yro.slashdot.org/story/02/06/...r-optic-cables
This, is new:
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/auslan...-a-908815.html

I wonder how this works (if it does), technically ..

YEAH

Anarchy!!!!:arrgh!:

Certainly, all ctritics of 'democracies' must be anarchists :O:

But then .. hardly (it is a quote from Tucholsky):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Tucholsky

" ... The "Weltbühne Trial" had made clear to him that critical publications already faced severe restrictions in Germany: from 1929 an investigation had been carried out of Carl von Ossietzky and the journalist Walter Kreiser for treason and the leaking of military secrets. ..."

Sounds familiar ?
And this also is from him (only found it in german, sorry):


Gesang der englischen Chorknaben
~ "The song of the english choir boys" (?)


Ehre sei Gott in der Hö-hö-he!

Wer hat die Wanzen und Flö-hö-he?

Die Armen,
die Armen –

Oh, habet Erbarmen!

Die Reichen
die Reichen

die brauchen das nicht;
sie liegen auf weichen,
weichen Kissen im Licht
oder bei ihren Damen –

Amen.

Ehre sei Gott in der ersten Etage!

Courage! Courage!

Macht eure Fabrik auch mal Plei-hei-te,
die Kirche, die steht euch zur Sei-hei-te
und gibt euch stets das Geleite:

sie beugt dem Proleten den Rücken krumm
und hält ihn sein ganzes Leben lang dumm,
und segnet den Staat und seine Soldaten,
die Unternehmer und Potentaten
und segnet überhaupt jede Schweinerei
und ist allemal dabei.

Jeder lebe in seinem Rahmen:
unten die Arbeitsamen
und oben die mit den Börseneinnahmen –

Amen.

Ehre den Gott der herrschenden Klassen!

Wir zähmen die Massen!
Wir lassen sie beten,
wenn sie getreten;
wir lassen sie singen,
wenn sie vor Hunger zerspringen;
wir lassen sie knien:
Wir wollen den Proletarier erziehn

zu einem geduldigen
unschuldigen
Arbeitstier – I-A! I-A!
Hallelujah!

Oh, tut doch nimmer im Beten erlahmen!
und höret auf der Kirche Reklamen –
jedes Ding, das ihr schiebt, schiebt ihr in IHREM Namen

Amen!

Theobald Tiger
Arbeiter Illustrierte Zeitung, 1928, Nr. 35, S. 11.




And no, he was not even a communist, but the Nazis of course hunted him for being critical (and a jew).

At first we have to have the Snowdons, who show the people the necessity to change the system. We have to encourage them to tell the truth, for all to see. They must be supported by the public, not demotivated.

We have to counter the media distraction, the media discreditation. We have to make the people aware of the measures to be expected by the media after these whistle blows. The public has to understand, the media is not independant and reliable, but controlled by those in the background. Education is a key, spread the word.

The majority has to realize they are out of control, their vote doesn't change anything. All parties are too close with the big business and too far away from the average Joe.
Change - Yes we can! is impossible, if the media manipulates the public to withdraw their initial support for a change and makes 'em vote for the other party to rule the congress.

We have to show alternatives to the established system. Too many doubt a change is possible, too many think this system is the ultima ratio, a change isn't necessary.

A regular "democracy" spiced up with some demarchy maybe?

(Demarchy is a form of government in which the state is governed by randomly selected decision makers who have been selected by sortition (lot) from a broadly inclusive pool of eligible citizens. These groups, sometimes termed "policy juries", "citizens' juries", or "consensus conferences", deliberately make decisions about public policies in much the same way that juries decide criminal cases. * from Wikipedia)

Let 3000 (?) by sortition appointed people decide together with the politicians. This would minimize the lobbyists influence on the decisions.

This way we could establish those laws and regulations securing our future, the future of our children. Without any blood shed or guillotines.

There may be better ways.


The people have to realize the consequences of their lifestyle. The US has 50 million folks on food stamps and another 50 million at the poverty line. That's one third of the US population.

The military actions taken by the government caused half a million dead civilians in Irak.
(Body count says 100 000 and some NGOs say more then a million - let's meet in the middle)
We act to the opposite of want we tell to be wrong. We do wrong!
We terrorize with drones and cruise missiles, but we expect to accept this.
We are on a war on terror - by terrorizing innocent others. Our governments are terrorists.

The lifestyle of the west consumes 80% of the world's recources. 1.5 billion people have no clean water, not enough food, no education. We support local dictators who don't give a dime for their people, but are willing partners for our oily or well armed business.

We have to tell our politicians to work on this. To work on peace and justice for the world. We - our side - are the ones who must act for the better. We got this far and reached our social-cultural advantage by opressing, robbing and destroying the lives of millions. We have to pay back, to care, to help, to lead, to educate.
We have to realize our lifestyle has to economize for the others to live up.

Or we simply give a .... (Hi Steve), shrug our shoulders and have a hot dog and a beer.


I'm no anarchist.

This was one of my first thoughts when the **it hit the fan on the NSA, but I could not remember the name of the boat or the name of the captain.

Thanks for the links ... didn't they accidently cut the cable as I remember?

If true there was no accident about it. You can't tap fiber optic cable without first cutting it.

Be careful gents - this is a link to wikileaks.
Remember, you are watched by the NSA and they keep all your online activities save.
If you plan to work for a public institution it may be better not to click the link.

http://wikileaks.org/Statement-from-...n-in.html?snow

"In the end the Obama administration is not afraid of whistleblowers like me, Bradley Manning or Thomas Drake. We are stateless, imprisoned, or powerless. No, the Obama administration is afraid of you. It is afraid of an informed, angry public demanding the constitutional government it was promised — and it should be."

@Mittelwaechter.

Again lots of good ideas. Good thoughts and insights. Please don't take offence but it's mostly wishful thinking. I say that because I don't see how it can be brought about. I don't see it happening.

Then again if you are personally trying to do something about it, good for you. I wish you all the best.

Good to know. Neither am I. But I have a realistic view of the world as it is.
It's not pretty. I wish it wasn't so.

Regards, crank.:salute:

It would send a warning signal: Politicias and leaders are not only powerful but also Vulnerable.
who is next for leading a country? wil spawn the question : who is next in line to be killed?

This either leads to Leaders being more careful in their Doings, or in Humanity selfdestructing.

I hope the latter, for i see no purpose for humans on this planet, besides getting on the nerves of all other forms of life.

From the biggest trees to the smallest beast, we the predators in here, and really deserve to die for our stupid, egoist, evil ways.

So Putin says he can stay in Russia if he does no more harm to "our American partners." Interesting line in BS there. Hats off Vladimir.

http://world.time.com/2013/07/01/put...-with-a-catch/

heh.
If snowden is an element that might help to overthrow the system...
and Putin is the head of another system...

its only logical to handcuff snowden, or make him promise to behave. Best interest for mpother russia too.

if he stays in russia, he gets a bullet in the neck and a shallow grave, sometime down the road.
and he knows that. so now, he wont stay in russia.

simplez.

what putin really said is that they do not want snowden. they just wrapped that content
in some roses, with thick thorns.

getouttahere, troublemaker!

Absolutely. They don't want him, though they may want his information which would be the only way they'd let him stay. If they get the info and no-one else does.

Putin want's someone else to shave the pig.