It was never closed, nor was it in any danger of being closed. I just wanted everyone to play nice(r).

JCC

the last part of the 8010, is shooting, its always done with 0 degree gyro angle, and this alone makes it extremely accurate and lethal.
a torpedo that bends increases the chance for a miss, verses one that doesnt.


in this example, the target has advanced in bearings from the 8010, its moving at 11 knots, on course 90,
the firing bearing for a target making 11 knots on course 90, r to sub, is 343 degrees.

the torpedo is fired at bearing 343, leading the target by 17 degrees, the torpedo will impact against targets hull at zero degrees.
this is the lead angle for the torpedo thats traveling at 36 knots, the MK-10 torpedo, target speed 11 knots.


for a MK-14 @ 31 knots, same course and speed for target, the firing bearing would be 340.5 degrees, for a 0 degree gyro impact at zero degrees.
for a mk-14 @ 46 knots, same course and speed for target, the firing bearing would be 347 degrees, for 0 degree gyro impact at 0 degrees.

different torpedo speeds and different target speeds produce different firing bearings, but all hit at 0 degrees, in p + s and 8010.

below i have attached a link to filefront which has folders for both american torpedoes and german torpedoes, all torpedo speeds, and all target speeds that will produce a zero degree gyro angle impact and attack, the firing bearings for 0 degree torpedo
impact, bow and stern torpedoes, on courses 90 or 270 degrees r to sub.

http://www.filefront.com/17274236/torpedo attack angles.rar


this completes the 8010 method.

http://a.imageshack.us/img833/6577/shooting.jpg
By null at 2010-09-08

The mission-editor set up 90-80-10 triangle continues to be a 90-80-10 triangle, what a surprise.

How again, did you determine that this one case out of infinite other AOB arrangements was the one the target happened to be in---oh, wait, you set it up that way in the editor. Well, within a degree or two.

Great method, and will work for any missions published by greyrider!

Nah, it was finished a long time ago.

Either that, or it never got started.

It appears Grey had proved his one valid point. This works well for him in the missions he set's up for them to work. If he likes to play that way, that's his choice. Maybe he can create a bunch of single missions for those that wish to play this way.

For others, it's time to walk away...

http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/u...old-lady-1.jpg

Good God man. :o
There was absolutely no call for that.

Putting a thong on a POW is just wrong :eek:

:nope:

You offend my wife, I thought she looked good for 47...oh well, you young men don't know a real woman when you see one.

I'm pretty sure there is a specific Geneva Convention being violated here.

Can someone pass the eye-bleach?

some of you keep saying over and over again, that i set up special case missions to prove my point, now tell me, how do i set up campaign missions?

thats what those movies are, campaign encounters, (except for the test mission) and i wouldnt know how to manipulate them, at all.

so being campaign episodes, its completely random,

so again, your points are mute.

i have an idea, why dont one of you, the opposition, set up a mission, or you pick out a mission, of your choosing, of a closing target from the single missions, or any mission that has been made by someone else, hows that?

send it to me, and ill do the mission, and film it.

listen opposition guys, i am up to proving it anyway you like, any time, anywhere, any mission,


i have in the past, i will continue to do so in the future, and any way you choose, just to satisfy you

you want to challange me? i am up for it, put up!

it doesnt even have to be a closing target, let it be miles away, going in the opposite direction, let me persue it, then ill get into the 8010, after chasing it, make it as tough as you can, i have my confidence i can take down whatever you put up.

tater, if i remember, you made a campaign awhile ago, im going to give this a direct challenge to you, since you know how to make a campaign, you make the mission, or you pick one out, collaborate with all your opposition friends, do whatevr you can do,
try with all your might, to have me fail, even multiplayer! try me!

challenge me! i have no fear. i will be waiting!

so theres the challange boys, take it or leave it.

and to the guys with the open mind, if you try, and you fail, dont give up, ill help you as best i can, there isnt another known method on the forums that gives so much information about the enenmy disposition as 8010, i will help you, thats a promise!

Re: the magic bullet--a thought
Quote:
Originally Posted by greyrider
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins
Double-check me but I believe you'll find that if you put yourself on a collision course so that your bearing to target doesn't change, his speed is ownspeed*sin(180-target bearing-AoB). Of course if you take 180 and subtract the Aob and then subtract the target bearing, you have subtracted two of the three angles of the triangle and have calculated the angle between his course and your course. Check out the trig function because without a way to diagram this I could be picking a sin instead of a cosine or other trig function by mistake.

rock, i copied and pasted this message to notepad and saved it to desktop, ill see what you are saying in it when i can, ill get back to you on it, thanks buddy
grey

No problem. The problem with thinking online is that lots of people go negative on you. Hope I've helped to shut down the naysayers and given you guys some room to work.
__________________

this was an email send to me by rocking robin, almost two years ago, when i first posted the magic bullet post, it seems there has been a complete reversal in thinking,:yawn:

None of the points are "mute" (sic).

I gave you a "random" scenario above, actually, with no need for the game to be started up. Target bearing 080 (closing), bearing is constant and your sub is going 3, say. Range: unknown.

What is his AOB?

(hint: I won't use 10)



You say things like "I'll get it into the 8010." Great, that is certainly possible: if you know the target's heading (and hence AOB). That's the problem, you must know this in advance to place your sub on a right-angle intercept.

Greyrider, I use a somewhat similar approach after getting the lead on my targets. I like it more in the 70/20 instead but there are some variables that need to be solved before you find the absolute AOB.

I'm using vector analysis to determine AOB from and educated guess and past experiences on speed of target. A Victory Cargo or Liberty Cargo ship usually is traveling at 10 knots when sailing alone. So on a 70/20 approach, my sub at 4 knots (2/3rd) I draw a line straight up on the map 4km long. Then measure a bearing line at 70 going out more than 15km. Then draw a new line from the top of my 4km line going out to the angle and where it intersects at 10km on the bearing line, I lock it down. Then a draw a new angle bearing line in that corner where my target should be. This gives me the AOB if the ship is doing 10 knots.

I'm just wondering if there is an easier way to calculate AOB vs speed. Suppose I have a target on my 80/10 like you suggest. My boat must go 3 knots to keep it at 80. How do you calculate speed and AOB from that? The clues are "closing" and "medium speed". What is the process that should be done to get him on an 80 with a 2 knot speed to make him be on a 10 degree AOB (or close enough)?

In the above situation, assuming 10 knots target speed, 80 degree bearing to me, he should be at an AOB 27.5 degrees. In your precess, should I speed ahead more to get more in front of the target and then reset to 80 degrees and see if it holds at 2 knots? Because staying at 3 is not going to gain. If I stay on course and current speed then AOB is not good enough for a shot from the hip (in my opinion).

In my process, I would simply do the calculations and determine the real AOB and just put that into the TDC and when the target gets to about 3000 yards/meters, then stop the boat and wait for optimum firing angles and take the shot using the TDC suggested angles. Seems to work dead on most of the time.

Granted on my last patrol, I missed some shots because of laziness starting to set in and a little over confidence on the captain's part. Trying to shoot a 10 knot moving away target at 3000 yards ain't easy to do. But I thought having the correct speed, bearing, and close enough AOB would be enough. It landed one shot, but 2 missed, and AOB was no longer the same. Shooting from the hip on a zigging target wasted my last 3 torpedoes. So one Victory Cargo got away because I was too lazy to do a run-around.

Any method, including the one grey thinks trumps me when he quotes my pm, depends on knowing the target course. That is where the AoB determination comes from unless you can see the target clearly enough to use the Mark 1 Eyeball method.

Yet grey continually says that by some black magic he can determine the AoB of an unseen target. Can't be done. No demonstration can refute that. It must be refuted with mathematics and explanation. That which cannot be explained is clearly false because the truth is always explainable. And the truth can always be taught so that others can duplicate the results. There is no truth in 8010.

Grey, what is angle on the bow? How about an explanation of that first of all? Are we all talking about completely different things based on a misapplication of the term?

tater, honestly you guys have thrown so much at me, that i am totally confused as to what your talking about.
but ill take your most recent post, and try again, you have said:
"Target bearing 080 (closing), bearing is constant and your sub is going 3, say. Range: unknown.
What is his AOB?"
"(hint: I won't use 10)".

the answer is 10 degrees aob!
the reason i say this is because the way you described the scene.
you said closing for one, you said bearing is constant for 2.
the reason im saying its 10 is because its being held constant at 80 and its closing, submarine is moving forward at 3 knots.
if there was another angle on it beside 10, then your sonar men would have said either "constant distance", (if you where on a paralle course to it",
which would make it a 90 degree aob.

or moving away, if it was larger than a 90 degree aob.

if target is held as you say, then its 17 knots target speed. (held at 80/10), rated as fast.
if target had 15 degree aob, then target speed would be 11 knots, and rated by sonarman as a medium speed.
if target has a 14 aob on it, scene as you described, target speed will be 12 knots, still rated as fast.
if 13 aob , target speed is 13 knots, the closer you get to 10 degrees the closer the target speed resembles the rated speed reported by the sonarmen.
see, you only have from 10 to 15 degrees before the rate of speed changes from fast to medium speed, rated by sonar.
once the rate changes, you realize that target aob is not 10 degrees.
if the target had a 9 aob, then target speed is 18 knots, still rated as fast, so the rate is right on, but, the target would now decrease in bearings, and start to go behind the submarine, which means it will change bearings,
could not be held constant, because the sub is moving forward, and target is moving to its rear.


you dont say the speed of the target, (slow, medium, or fast), but you do say 3 knots is holding the target constant, so the target speed would be 17 knots.
this would be rated as fast speed by the sonarmen, and we have to work with sonarmen in this method to at least get the target speed rated.
we could do this ourselves if the game had a true propeller pitch for the ships, we could rate it ourselves, but we cant because of the way the propeller pitch is in the game.
so because of that, we have to depend on the sonarman for a rate of speed, and this is not my fault, we have to go with what the game gives us to work with.
the answer to a target that cant be held constant is to close on target course , then turn in when into the target and establish 8010, closing this is a judgement call,
nothing is handed to us, we have to makes judgements and estimations of the tactical situation, and we hold the iniatitive, its up to us.
in an 8010, you only have a very few angle on bows to work with, before somethings changes from the rate of speed that the sonar will rate target for.
thats kinda like one of the beauties of 8010 angular setup. something will change, something will be obvious to the skipper soon,
and this is why a 10 aob can be judged pretty accurately.
tater, i know you have a calculator, and you know the formula, try plugging different values of aob, while keeping sub speed and lead angle constant,
and you will see what i mean, about only having a few aob angles to work with before something changes, whether the speed rate, or target direction, something will change, and it will be obvious to the skipper.

i hope this helps, if not, ill stick with it until it does.
and i just want to say, theres no hard feelings on my part, hope not on your part either, for what was said.