Hm, reading the entries of Markshot, Penelope, Mush Martin and Captain Lehman I can't but help to feel of these folks are decent ppl with no basic hatemonger for each other.

On the contrary, having been on many different forums and having had to deal with a broad spectrum of opinions and attitudes, I gotta say the level of maturaty is particulary high in this forum, quite to the contrary of what I though in the beginning. The more does it suprise to observe such a debate, which appears to be motivated in parts by personal offense and the feeling of unjust treatment by either side.

As a mere observer I certainly lack the details to propperly judge the situation in every detail. But it seems a lot comes down to simple misunderstanding and basic attitudes to some subjects coming up here.

To give an example, one side considers the discussion of game exploits as ruining the game for those not willing to hear about it and thus spoil the game expirience, while the other side wants an open and ideology free discussion, not so much about game expirience, but game system.

Both side's POV in this regard are completly legit. It's a matter of how to approach the game itself. Some ppl want to immerse themselves to a point they forget its program codes and graphics, while the other, often beeing involved in programming in real life, too, see a more technical side to it. Ppl can differ quite a bit in how they percieve the world as a whole or mere aspects of it.

I am kinda reminded of a discussion in the IL2 forums. There some russian geeks came up with a solution to tweak aircraft engine sounds. What followed was a bloody battle to death. On the one side ppl were exited and overly energetic to hear those news, after all the sounds in this game were way below standart after all and this mod actually DID improve these quite considerably, doing a lot for immersion.

The other side rose all hell about it because they saw their online expirience threatend. They feared if one such exploit is used, then others changing flight model and comparable attributes will follow soon. Which actually was not an unreasonable assumption and a real danger for those regulary competing in online simming.

Again, both sides were right in their assesment considering their own expectations and what was needed to make this game fun for themselves. Still, no solution was found to this day. Instead, the many more ppl supporting the mod ban basicly managed to even ban the mere mentioning of said mods from the forums. Coexistance thus was not possible.

How to solve such a dilemma, where fundamentally different attitudes towards a game/simulation/mod clash, despite all folks involved beeing great ppl who under different conditions would have no problem having a beer with each other?

Dunno. But I think mutual apologies to each other and the attempt to actually carefully "listen" to the other side could be of great help. That certainly also includes the need for one party to bring over its point without hostile feelings or the urge to "prove a point". Now yeah, that is a bit of idealistic and in part naive daydreaming here. BUT, then again, and as I mentioned earlier, folks in this forum are a bit more mature then the average, so there may be some real hope.

Any chance for that?

I was the Mod. who locked that thread MS. That night I got a heads up from another member regarding that thread, that I needed to be aware of it. So I went to have a look.

I might add that from time to time we Mods. get PMs from members here alerting us to different stuff going on, it is appreciated. It is hard to monitor all that goes on in the various threads-forums, we do our best, but it is impossible to see everything.

As you will recall I posted in that thread with the hopes that the discussion would improve, having seen similar discussions in the past that did not, I decided to close it. Did I lock the thread to quickly, perhaps. But I made a decision that night and to this day accept the consequences for it, as I do with other decisions that I make. But like anybody else in this thread, in these forums and indeed at SUBSIM, you live and learn, nobody is perfect here, far from it.

Behind the scenes Moderator's ( including Neal ) communicate quite often really, asking questions on the issues of the day, talking about existing and potential scenarios here, bouncing ideas back and forth, all in an effort to do what we do here better. We also receive feedback from you folks, that is valuable as well. None of us here enjoy or want to lock a thread, we would rather see members work issues out amongst themselves, this place, SUBSIM is all about it's members, but sometimes we do have to take action.

Locking this thread has been mentioned here, and whether Moderator's here would do this, as I have posted previously, that is not anybodies intention, far from it. Like everybody else here we want to see this through and get to a place where all acknowledge that SUBSIM is a welcome place to come and participate, and although we may not necessarily agree with what some folks say or do here, we at least respect them as members for being able to say it.

There has been some good discussion in this thread, I think there has been some nice progress made, and more to be made I am sure :yep: Like many here, I hope that this process has some positive lasting effects going forward.


RDP

Is this a forum or a political brawl?
 

I started on this site in the 90s, and it was a true forum where we discussed and shared views. Now I am sorting through 10+ pages of "Democrat Attack Junk"
I am 67 years old and retired Navy and I love Submarine Sims. Subs were my life for 24 years. If I want to read or hear attacks I will read my morning paper or turn on the news.
I am asking, Please can we drop the rancor and go back to sharing views and respecting the views of others.
I posted earlier that I was disappointed that so much attention was being paid to U-Boats, many of you answered back, very politely I want to say, stating your views. For that I thank you. I was not being critical of anything I was simple asking if anyone was doing anything to improve SH4. I like to play the U.S Boats and it was suggested that I patch to "Trigger Maru", I don't know what it does and I did go to the site but I was not sure if it was the correct down load. It was pointed out that the U-Boat mod also improved the Sim over all, I did not know that. Is "Trigger Maru and the U-Boat mod similar to SCXIIc and Lwami? Now I would like all of you to read this thread and tell me what happen to respect and civility?
What is the use of posting or reading on this site if degenerates in to a verbal brawl accomplishing nothing. I have been here a long time, I will bet you there are newer members who on reading this shy a way because they don't want be ridiculed for asking questions or stating their views. I am sure I will be hammered for this post-Go for it- I am old and have a hard shell and I will keep asking and sharing until I can't see my monitor.

Please lets step back and work together,

Ron Banks MMCM(SS), USN(Ret)
(I have been on Submarines for real)

Pleased to meet you Sub Sailor sir.....Good post http://www.psionguild.org/forums/ima...ies/pirate.gif

http://img396.imageshack.us/img396/2...0salutekw6.gif

Well said Sir! I participate in many different forums and this one has always been the best in regards to helpfullness, civility and mutual respect. I hope we can continue to keep it that way.

Sub Sailor. You should definately try out TMO. It does a lot of good for this nice sim. You want to first get JSGME (Jonesoft Generic Mod Enabler) It makes installing/unistalling mods a breeze. Then go to the sticky for TMO and get the version for what you are patched to. There is one if you are patched to 1.4 and another if you are using the Uboat add-on 1.5. TMO focuses on the fleet boats. :up:

Well I owe the community an apology for part of my post, the last paragraph. I'm not apologizing for the words I wrote because I believe them but AVG is right, Subsim is certainly not the place to post it and I was wrong in doing so and if I offended anyone, I truly am sorry. I also owe AVG an apology for having to respond to a statement that did not belong here. Sorry bro.:oops:

I want to make clear (I didn't in my original post) that I have no problem whatsoever with GWX coming to SH4, as a matter of fact, I welcome them with open arms. My disappointment is with UBI. As Sub Sailor said in the post I quoted, I bought a fleetboat sim and I see it going in the wrong direction if your a fleetboat fan. I also feel like the modders that do so much for the PTO get looked over way to often (though not always intentionally) and that kinda gets in my craw sometimes. Oh well, if the PTO stays just as it is, it is still a great sim so I'll leave it at that.:up:

Having created a few of my own tweaks that I have given to the public, let me say its very very easy for "discussion" on something to be taken personally when it isn't intended to be. You must remember, typing doesnt provide you the ability to see a face or hear a tone- and our minds often jump to offense when none was intended. I recall a similiar issue occured way back in SH4's early history with nukeboat and killersub - see http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=116075 and you will see that I took offense to someone giving an observation about the mod. The fact is - while I got angry and took the criticism personally, I don't think in hindsight it was. Whats even more important is that the "flaw" in the original mod being pointed out pushed me to learn more about modding and what I was doing - making later releases of that mod and other things I have worked on better.

Now I am not defending anyone here - I wasn't involved in any of the discussion and I really don't care to read a bunch of drama. Here is what I think - The GWX team working on something involving SH4 is a good thing - because sooner or later I will get to try what they build. Guess what - I will change it as I think I need to - just to suit my own gameplay desires. I have done the same to TMO, RSRD and countless other mods not related to subsimming. Why - because whether it be the great work of Ducimus, Beery, the GWX team, or anyone else, I like to play these games. So I am glad these people and groups are out there working hard. Opinions on how to do things, and the things that need to be done, will always differ - thats why we CHOOSE what we load on our machines to play - either as released or "tweaked" like we want.

@ AVG - thanks mate for the compliment on the equation - hows this for balancing the checkbook - Uboat expansion for 9.95 on subsim.com = fun for all those who havent gotten it yet!!!

CaptainHalo:

Shameless but I like it:D

Been staying away from here for a couple of days, but I would like to make on last post in this thread.

Earlier I was dealing with the attitude of the fans, which was misinterpereted by a GWX member as being directed at the team.

Because of what I then saw as contradictory answers and a misreperesentation of what I posted because of a misunderstanding I responed to the POSTER. We exchange a couple of posts and it should have stayed between us, yet the next thing I know I'm being blamed by another GWX member for trolling for harsh answers from the entire GWX team. The whole pont is, if the responses to my posts had been left to the person they were directed at, that's where it would have stopped. We could have dealt with it between the 2 of us. But no, instead I get called, close mnded, a troll, etc. So yes, then I responded to the other posts.

Take what you want from that. But why, when a person is responding to the post of another person, why do the other GWX team members feel obligated to start with personal comments instead of letting the situation be resolved among the 2 people hashing it out?

If others had kept out, then there wouldn't have been follow on repsonses to their additional comments.

So, when trying to deal with one person, and then having others jump in and resort to "name calling" . . . as someone who has not dealt with GWX before, I now am starting to understand the source of some of the hostility that has been generated among the community by that team.

So what's the point in bringing this up?
I think such experiences is one of the reasons there are hard feelings toward some of the GWX team members.

As stated earlier, I have no issues with their work, and am glad for the ATO players that they'll have a mod dealing with their favorite theater.

Whatever responses may follow this, I'm done with this thread. It would be nice though if the "name calling" will be refrained from. AVG has ponted out that there are GWX members he's dealt with who are stand up guys. Coming from another stand up guy like AVGwarhawk, that's a great compliment, so I trust him on this.

For users, RFB will continue development with an eye towards remaining as compatible as possible with other major mods that enhance the game. If that includes finding a way to cohabitate with a GWX mod, then that's what we'll do.

I choose to believe GWX will be willing to work towards that end for the users benefit too. If benefiting users was not part of their goal, they wouldn't be doing all this work for free. So their end result speaks highly of their intentions.

We can only hope it may be as simple as having 2 versions of some key files that can be activated / deactivated using JSGME (sounds being one) depending on whether you play ATO or PTO. To keep everyone building mods from having headaches, let's hope the game engine allows us to come up with such a simple solution (or that someone creates an SH4 commander utility).

Allow me to join you in that simplistic wish.........Let us hope that one day both our hopes, desires and aspirations come to fruition. http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/9708/piratebf4.gif

Besides....the summers and the winters are a lot more pleasant in the Pacific. http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/9...humbsuprw5.gif

@Mush: Since WernerSobe has devoted so much of his attention to mods, I've become the pretender to the throne of strategy guru in SH4, with some pretty strange strategies sometimes. I also imported U-Boat targeting practices (after "justifying" the tactic with vague references aaronblood found in Dick O'Kane's books) into Silent Hunter IV. Other that one troller who appeared from nowhere to badger me about "game tricks" and then vanished as trolls often do, the SH4 forums have been a haven of open ideas strategy-wise.

There was a thread on one of the missions where an attack is made on a task force including the Yamato. A gamer posted that he liked to put six into the Yamato and then surface beside its smoking hulk to pick off the entire task force with his deck gun. They wouldn't return fire because he was beside the Yamato.

I am well known for the test of historical plausibility as the gatekeeper for what strategy I will use. I replied that in real life, other ships would not have held all their fire. They would have opened up with small arms fire, 40mm and below, because it would not hurt the Yamato's hull. They would have swept the deck of the sub, keeping the gun crew from firing a single shot. And they would have sunk the sub with 5" or equivalent ordinance by bringing a ship so close to the helpless submarine that they could sink the sub without endangering the Yamato.

I then congratulated the poster for a neat strategy for SH4. One thing I hope to see for SH4 is a healthy mod community of totally unrealistic Star Wars-like blast 'em to hell from on invincible high mods. This is a high tradition in just about any moddable game, and SH4 should be no different. It is true that such God modes lack challenge and staying power for players, but they are a hell of a lot of fun for awhile and for a break once in awhile. When those come out and are attacked, I'll be there with a strong defense.

Because Silent Hunter 3 and 4 are not just simulations. They are games. Anything that works in the game is fair play. You and I may choose to play otherwise, but that is our right, not our obligation. It is wrong of us to criticise or seek to supress "game tricks" just because we from our ivory towers believe that we know more than they do. GWX's admitted treatment of MarkShot is indefensible and deplorable, especially if you grant their "argument" that they were in the right because it was a game exploit. That ploy just digs GWX a deeper hole.

OF COURSE what MarkShot talks about is a "game exploit." That is why he brings it up. And he brings it up for the purpose of having it examined by many sets of eyes so it can be appreciated and worked on. Then nobody says "neat find!" Here comes the bullying.

Thank God that hasn't happened in SH4 forums. Yet. If it does I will have a lot to say about it. I have a very thick skin. With all respect to everybody, I do not care what anybody else's thoughts are about what I post. I am happy to receive correction, clarification and verification, but nothing is subject to bullying. I do not care if someone does not like what I say.

The opinion of the guy who shelled out his cash and can't find the handle on the game, who's ready to quit, and something I say makes a difference: the guy whose curses are turned into fun, his opinion is all I care about. I have received a lot of PMs from those people, who, in spite of my imperfect explanations and sometimes clumsy wording and lousy videos, find something of value that keeps them playing Silent Hunter.

Armed with those communications, unlike MarkShot, Mush, Ducimus, I stand with Sub Sailor. I've been though the intimidation thing and it is not worth my time to get upset about.

Those in the right stand. All that is necessary for those in the wrong to triumph is that those in the right surrender. Bullying is the inappropriate conduct that produces that surrender in some. My treasure trove of PMs from unknowns who perhaps have never even posted on SubSim says that ain't gonna happen here.

@ RR ...Good Post.
Thick skin I do have.
Had I been "going on upset about it" that would have gone on months ago

For my own part I am interested in all the forums of SS being
positive and progressive places for us to hang out, my issue isnt
really with even those to whom I took offense in the first place
my concern is the nurturing atmosphere and so as I see it I see
a disturbance in the force that way and am compelled as a good
member to say something about it. all good for you and me as we
are familiar with the people and issues but indeed to a noob?

I am not really trying to grind an axe with my last post I am trying
to address what I percieve as an issue detrimental to the greater
comfort of the community. I dont really want to recriminate or crucify
anyone. I would like attention brought to the matter that it is indeed
a serious issue for the community, an issue which I feel has not been
effectively dealt with to this point.

My appeal isnt for anything other than an establishment or commitment
to deal more directly and effectively with this issue from the site management. I dont actually care about my own incident but I did feel
markshots issue was being dismissed offhandedly. And as I have had
the same experience I felt that maybe it might be pro active to point
out that there is far more than just me and He that have had this
treatment.

SS is my favourite place on the net. my home on the net
you guys are my peers, I just expect more from us.

Arrrrrr!:arrgh!: And change that masterpiece of a siggy picture and your life is in peril!:rotfl:

I have to admit, the foreboding weather in the Atlantic really sets the mood for this type of simulation. I would hope one day I could play a DD or Flower Class simulation escorting convoys in the Atlantic. "Compass Rose" would be a cool name for the game. Deal with the weather and keep you herd moving forward.

I'm always reminded of that classic....The Cruel Sea.

It would be so cool trying to shepherd your flock in some semblence of order whilst trying to protect them from relentless attack.

TBH, I'm suprised nothing came in that elk after Destroyer Command.