Not gonna happen.

There is plenty of room in this ocean for all kinds of fish.

JCC

Just have another forum called Silent Hunter 4: Add on

No reason for that. It'll just fragment the community even more.

Anyone remember "Red Storm Rising"?
One thing i liked specially about this game was that you where able to set a start time for the campaign (a fictional "hot war" between the NATO and the Warsaw Pact) ranging from 1962 ("Cuban Crisis" got hot), mid 1970s and mid 1980s.
Depending from the start time you had either a "Skipjack", "Sturgeon", "Los Angeles" or "Improved Los Angeles" - Class Sub!
I really would love playing something like this with SH4 graphics, and "Dangerous Water" complexity.

Regarding the Add-on i must admit that this is something i personally not need! Imho the WWII subsims are well covered with SH3 and SH4 and as well i can understand ppl who wants to play the Brits, Italians or any other nations subs it would be only "cosmetic" changes because the warfare and tactics would keep the same.

That investment would be worth it only if you convince all 10 year olds to buy it.


On a more personal note (and off topic), I find it a bit discrediting when all of the forum members refer to "SH4 graphics with Dangerous waters/SH3/whatever complexity". Is this what SH4 is to you all, a pretty screensaver?

And if not even the add-on won't change your opinion, I don't know what will.

Far from it. Sh4, is many things, and if i didnt love the game so much, i wouldnt have spent hours on it each day, for weeks, (months?) tinkering with it.

:hmm: Well...
I don't know you very much Duci, but let me say that even if we SH3 players and u-boote fans will post messages in the SH4 section of SubSim, we will not stop anybody from posting messages related to what SH4 really is : a game related to american submarines, and not to u-boote.
We've talked a bit about it (the SH3/SH4 players war) via PM months ago, and you told me that you would like to see us, members of the SH3 community, playing SH4 and talk about it, in order for us to admit that the u-boote men aren't the only heroes and all. So one of the reasons why you play SH4 is history (just as it is for SH3 players). Now, let me tell you that we don't have anything against the Pacific theatre of operation and its history. But everyone has his own personality ! WE JUST LIKE VERY MUCH SOMETHING, AND YOU PREFER SOMETHING ELSE YOURSELF ! Everyone has his own tastes !
Do you want we all to have the same tastes that you have yourself just to please you ? I'm sure you know that what makes a community is the variety of people and tastes we all have at SubSim. ;)

So please, consider staying here as none of us have said that the SH4 forum is now the property of u-boote men ! :lol:


Alex

I regard SH4 as the most complex and most fun to play simulation on the planet .

I know that sounds a bit insulting but I think it is a compliment. To date SH4 graphics are the best we've ever seen in a naval game. Concerning the complexity: SH4 or SH4 are very demanding but I think why many think that DW is more complex is because it has more eletronic gadgets. I don't think DW is more complex it is just demanding in a different way.
However if I had to chose between DW and SH4 I'd always chose SH4 because it let's me think I'm the skipper- that's a thing that DW doesn't offer.

SH4 is far from a screensaver. It is a very enjoyable game. One that I play everyday. It is a fresh face with fresh ideas that keep me coming back to it daily. Not to mention my interests in the PTO. We all have been spoiled with super mods in previous releases of the SH series. SH4 is still the babe in the woods but is growing daily into one enterprising adventure. In fact, I get at least one test mod every few days and I often have to restart my career for the testing. I enjoy every one of the mods offered for testing because sooner or later, these mods will end up in a larger package for all to use. There is much to do and many years of enjoyment in SH4. Are the graphics top notch? You bet they are! Are the mission offered creative? Absolutely! A bit more going on than just sitting in a square for 48 hours. Furthermore, missions can be added and more complex as experienced in the RSRD mod created by Lurker and crew. If any have tried it, Lurker sends you off to different patrol areas based on actual events in hopes you catch and sink what might be coming that way. Sometimes you bag them and sometimes you miss the whole shabang by a day.

In short, SH4 has pulled in some great modders who have a passion to create a awesome simulation and in the less than handful of months since release, SH4 has come a long way. SH4 is destined to be more than a screensaver. This is evident by looking over the SH4 mod forums.

Yes, there are all kinds of fish out there doing their thing but fish tend to run in schools. It is their nature.

Just to address a couple of comments about Japanese sub operations in the Pacifc, it was pretty boring. The Japanese did not see their subs in an offensive role and most were used to ferry men and supplies... There were a few used for survellience and intelligence gathering...

Of course, there were, late in the war, one man "suicide subs"... But that makes for a really short game...

I think the reference here is to the complexity of the platforms being simulated. Ie, post war/cold war technology is far more complex than WWII technology.


Obviously not. We're not so simple minded as to be "wasting" hour after hour playing a screen saver.

JD

I think that patched to 1.4, with an 'Add On' and modded to taste, Silent Hunter 4 will be the best sub sim ever created. Thanks to Ubisoft, even though we have to drag them to the party sometimes, and special thanks to the Devs and the modders who together have made this game hugely enjoyable for years to come. :D

Not all forum members. ;)

And I for one, feel pretty badly about the way this thread has made you feel; but I did my best to prevent it.

On the graphics issue, like someone else said; I would try to consider that a compliment, as the exterior and underwater visuals can be so stunning compared to SH3, that it's one of the biggest improvements that stand out in people's minds.

It's much easier for the average player to be affected by the visuals, than the complexity of the campaign layers or some of the other features that don't readily jump out to the average player.

Yes, SH4 is definately packed with a lot more than just eye candy. It's also a long and deep game (no pun intended); that can sometimes require months of playing to really begin to appreciate the type of complexity it has. It's not an "in your face", glaring complexity.

Your own post indicates though, why it is a 'behind the scenes' complexity; "10 year olds have to buy it". Clearly, the execs at UBI want to ensure that the game is approachable by the largest demographic possible, to ensure the most sales and return on investment. I'm all for that, I want to see the money pour in, and further SH projects continue.

I'm sure I don't need to explain to anyone what "Dangerous Waters complexity" means; and some people have a valid point in saying that they prefer to have to go to real flight school for 6 months before they can sit down and play a flight sim like Lock On. But, to each his own. Clearly though, making such a game limits the demographic and future sales of that game and most likely it's successors once it's reputation is established. I for one, would not buy Dangerous Waters 2. But I would certainly buy an SH5. That means, you guys have done the right thing with balancing complexity with "ease of playing", as well as other features that simply make the game "fun".

So, while this has become a bit of a long winded ramble; Yes, SH4 has depth and complexity, but it is subtle and takes time to discover it all, while the first time anyone turns on SH4, the first thing they feel is "Wow, look at that!"

All things considered, Bravo to you sir for a wonderful product. :up:


_________________________


Regarding the add-on; there can be lots of speculation about why things are being done a certain way, and most of those thoughts are probably wrong. One thing is for certain though; all the parts are being given to the community to create an Atlantic Uboat campaign in the SH4 engine. The ATO is already there, with all her coastlines and ports and cold North Atlantic waters. I've been there in game and seen it all.

Now, we're going to get playable Uboats already designed for SH4.

Within a years time, and with the GWX team, we will all be playing both theatres in the SH4 engine, and honestly, all of Subsim should be rejoicing.

I, for one, can't wait.


_________________________



As for the division between the SH4 and SH3 forums, it is one of the most unfortunate things I have seen happen to a website, and it's fairly unique to Subsim.

My personal perspective, and it's only an opinion;

From a players perspective, I think many SH3 players had issues with performance with the higher requirements of the SH4 engine, and also SH4 got pushed out of the oven before she was ready, and the issues that caused gave some a bad first impression as well. Those that liked SH4 from day one, tried to defend her, and thus two people with different opinions of the same game begin to disagree, and it went a little overboard, imo. Personally, I wish all of us would put our personal game preferences aside, stop using them as weapons with which to beat each other, and remember that we are all here because we are all Subsim fans. The community, and the future of the SH series, would be far better served if we focused on our similarities instead of our differences.


_____________________________


In regards to the GWX team and SH4; I believe this is an issue seen completely different depending on if you're a player or a modder. I'm going to try to be completely open and honest here, and lay my cards on the table.

From me personally, obviously the GWX mod deserves the accolades and stature it has achieved, and the GWX team is to be commended and respected for what it has created. From strictly a game playing standpoint, certainly having those talents go to work on SH4 could only be beneficial to the game and the players. Extremely talented people who I don't need to name have already blazed a trail through SH4 modding, and if we could only somehow pull the very best parts from all and combine them, the possibilities of what can be done are endless. From a players perspective, the more modders, and even having GWX come over to SH4, is certainly a desirable thing. What the players don't see, is the modders perspective on this.

From a modders perspective, GWX is a monopoly that has inadvertently taken control of SH3. Since everyone is using GWX, as it has become 'the standard', every modder has to make things compatible with GWX, or people cannot use it. That by itself, is not a problem.

However, this creates a second issue, where in order to make a mod GWX compatible, files have to be altered to match what's in GWX. This creates the "permissions" issue.

So what you have now, is any modder who wants to do anything for SH3, pretty much has to get GWX's permission to do it. When you take this type of control, and then throw in personal conflicts, ego's, and simple human nature, you get a lot of problems and resentment.

When modders appear to be resisting the GWX team migrating to SH4, it isn't because of anything other than no one wants the same difficult monopoly situation to now take over two games and two forums.

Again, none of this is a criticism or complaint, I said I would be open and honest and I'm just trying to lay out the facts.

So, how do we get around this and do what most benefits the community, the players, and the game?

My personal opinion; We all need to try to lay down our differences, and work collectively and cooporatively. Not an easy task. For that to happen, ego's have to be put away.

Another issue, which is really quite simple; and I think this point is going to be very important, and I really hope everyone listens to and thinks about this;

The entire "permissions" thing has become fubared.

It was created in an effort to make cooporation between modders and prevent mod theft. But it has become a weapon and a tool to manipulate and control. That must, and is going, to stop.

The modding etiquette rules are there to help us get along and play nice. And they are good rules. But they are not enforcable by anyone but the modders themselves, and this has been stated by Subsim staff. They are guidelines, not laws.

If I make a supermod, and another modder wants to make a new sound effect that will work with my mod, that should be a good thing that benefits the community. As a modder who wants to benefit the community, I should say "sure, take my file changes, an add yours to it". What should not happen, is purely for personal selfishness, I say "no, I will not allow you to duplicate my changes". That type of ego, power, and control only hurts the community, the game, and is a big factor in dividing the community.

The "permission" etiquette, is there to encourage us to respect each other and get along.

The permissions etiquette is certainly not there to allow someone to abuse it and use it as a weapon against other people who tried to respect it.

The permissions rule is being abused, it's being used for personal ego and power, and that is what is causing problems in the Subsim modding community.

How does that get fixed? Simple, you stop giving someone that power. The modding etiquette rules are not enforcible, they are adhered to as a sign of respect and cooporation. When that posture is not returned, then those rules are no longer going to be respected. When those rules are abused, then they are no longer going to be adhered to.

If I create a really great new mod, and I need to attach it to a file that's in Trigger Maru to make it compatible with Trigger maru, I'm attempting to do something for the comunity by making it work for the TM players. In no way should Ducimus say "tough, I'm not going to let you". I don't think he would anyway, but if he did, it would simply be a stupid move that would only keep the community from getting another good mod, and it would hurt everyone, modders and players alike.

There is no reason why Ducimus would prevent the commmunity from benefitting from a new feature, except some stupid personal vendetta or ego trip.

This is how the permisions etiquette is being abused, and used in a way that hurts all of us.

I say there's a new etiquette rule: When someone is using the etiquette rules in a way that makes them counterproductive, in a way that hurts the community, denies players new and improved mods, and is used for personal gain; then that person(s) loses their right to enforce them. If you're going to abuse the etiquette rules, then you lose the right to benefit from them. Because quite frankly, there is no one here who has the right to tell any modder "permission denied".

All it does is ultimately hurt and stifle modding and modders. And, quite frankly, if you tell me "permission denied. I will not let you make your mod", you only have that power if I allow you to have it. I can tell you to piss off, I'm going to do what's right for the community, and you can't do a damn thing about it anyway.

Fake power, abused rules, stepped-on modders for the sake of ego. It all has to stop.

Use the etiquette rules properly. Show each other respect, and do what is right for the community as a whole, not what's right for one mans ego.

No one has to accept "Permission denied". No one has the right to deny anyone permission to make a mod to better the game and the community, and it isn't going to be tolerated any longer.

It's time for the madness to stop, for the betterment of the community.




Having said all of that, please understand that the rant is intended to be constructive for the community. I realize there are some who will only recieve this in a negative way, but I said I would be open and honest and I'm simply trying to lay out the facts of one the biggest problems at subsim right now. For what it's worth, none of this is intended in a harmful or personal way. But I think it's time for political correctness to step aside and some real hard facts to be brought out into the light, so things can be fixed and made better for subsim as a whole.


Cheers to all. :|\\

I feel it's time to chime in here also. I own SH4 but I do not play it anymore. Reasons are my own and don't need to be made public here.
I think Monolith has a valid point here. The subsim modding etiquette is RECOMMENDED but not enforced. It only takes a couple of times of someone telling you 'permission denied' because they have a pompous attitude or took something personally or for whatever reason before you have to look the other way and move forward with what you want to do.
As with everything in this world monopolies always emerge. It is up to the people to determine how these monopolies control or try to control things, not them.
I think it's time we revamp the modding etiquette suggestions. They were written to serve a purpose at the time but the time now is completely different of what it was back then. Just as the U.S. constitution has been amended since it's inception the modding etiquette needs some amendments also.
Just my $0.02. :)

I understand your feelings maerean. However the reason some people may consider SHIV nothing more than a "pretty screensaver" is that so much that was loved from SHIII was left out of SHIV. The best example is the crew interaction. I went back and played SHIII a while ago and while I really missed the great graphics of SHIV, I was reminded of how much the crew interaction feature gives that "being there" feeling.

When I click on my watch officer and he turns to me an responds, it may sound silly, it increases the immersion factor by 1000%. Why this was left out of SHIV I cannot imagine. It was in SHIII. Was there no time to animate the characters other than just spinning in circles?

The point is that while most of us were able to look past these omissions because our love of the Pacific theatre, it gave those U-Boat lovers something to laugh at. Therefore their conversion to SHIV could never be possible.

It was a big mistake on Ubisoft's (or whoever's) part to not a least import the features of the prequel to the sequel.
.

By the way, this whole modding permissions thing is absolutely ridiculous. Just so I understand, if I mod GWX and then release it for FREE I am going to make someone upset? Who the ******** cares. What are they going to do, sue me?

As long as I acknowledge the work of those that I have modded what is the problem? What ever happened to the concept of "immitation is the best form of flattery"? I understand someone may have worked very hard on a mod, but the whole point of this community is open source right?

Some people need to get a life outside of the "modding world"... :roll:
.

amen brother. That's why it's time for a change. :yep:

I'm following this thread with a great deal of interest.

I'm now a lot happier that the blatant labelling and blanket castigation of collective groups and accompanying derogatory terminology has ceased also.

I do not find it acceptable that everyone be tarred with one brush, or presumed to be something or other because of their involvement with a particular game, modding team, or even because of what is on their sig.
There are a lot of good people involved with both SH3 and SH4.
Great strides in modding terms have been made in both games....non more so than in SH3, but it is early days yet for SH4 and in the fullness of time I sincerely hope and expect we will see those same strides achieved in SH4.
That will not happen until all this bickering and fighting ceases and both sets of modding communities come to know, trust and gather the will to work together.
Time alone will tell.

Me personally, I look forward to that day.

Fair winds and following seas everyone.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I do not intend the following remarks in a confrontational manner, but fully realise they run the risk of multiple interpretation:

@Racerboy
Your comments puzzle me sir.....in recent times, during your short modding career here, I am aware of all the detailed help you have received from certain parties over at GWX. Information that has been vital to your achievements to date.
I wonder how your latest remarks regarding the modding etiquette will be viewed by those who answered your calls for help and assistance.

Respectfully Yours
Jimbuna

I travel to London for 3 days in the morning and whilst I am quite happy to continue this debate it may be Wednesday evening before I am able (I must spare a thought for my Blackberry battery....not to mention my Shift Inspector) ;)