I disagree. SB Pro PE is worth the $125 simply because it's a highly realistic tank sim that's still in development. The thing you need to understand is SB isn't a sim that's going to sell to a large audience. It's a very niche sim that's only marketable to hardcore armor enthusiasts. Granted, this business model isn't for every company, but it works very well for E-Sim.

Also, while I applaud BI's business model, you also have to face the fact that it's a FPS. A FPS, no matter how complex, will still draw far more interest from casual gamers than any niche sim ever will.


Never played Arma, but I'm happy to hear someone else finally figured out how to make a good editor.

I don't think things are as bad as you point them out to be. Honestly, all of this is speculation, but I highly doubt SCS will be after a mass market. They never had one to begin with. And in a niche market, I would hope that a more focused approach would allow them to spend less resources and make reasonable profit off it.

We'll see, I guess. Honestly, SCS games really only succeeded back in the 90s, when simulations were huge. Since then, marketing this type of game was very difficult, and one reason SCS disappeared as a consumer game developer was that with DW and even SC, they simply did not adapt to the new market. They still built these as though we lived in an era where Janes games sold well.

Since then, the mass-market approach of Ubi with SH5 has also shown to be a flawed if not totally failed one - so if they learned anything from that, it's how to NOT market what's always going to be an inevitably niche game. Meanwhile there are two paths that have emerged and showed to be sustainable for simulation marketing - one being that of IL-2 and, more recently, stuff like Rise of Flight, where new content is developed and marketed post-core-game, or that of Steel Beasts, an almost singular case where the developer sells to a small market at a high price.

I suspect that a (rumored) return of SCS to the market is more likely to take the former path, that's all. BI and ArmA, by the way, have been on that exact path as well.

I've been thinking about this some more. Another thing I would like to see is more message traffic and to have more adaptive message capabilities in the editor. Having fluid variable mission tasking that develops along with the mission would really add to the immersion.

While I am on that subject better physics and buoyancy modeling would help as well. Having trouble maintaining depth in rough sea states and better modeling of ship surfaces and the effect on ship pitch, roll, and yaw. I know I am probably reaching on this since being accurate across very many platforms would be tremendously difficult. But maybe if the capabilities were there the community could create some reasonable data settings.

Personally I'd like to see Fleet Command 2. I've spent hours with the game, and I absolutely love it, but it's being kind to say it's dated to say the least.

If we went the Dangerous Waters Route a few things HAVE to change:

1.) Most importantly there HAS to be a tutorial mission for each part of the ship, sub, heli, plane, or whatever. That doesn't mean you have to do a TMA for the Akula, the Seawolf, and yada, yada; But you need to present each station and how to operate it for each type of station, and then do ones for units where the station is almost like a completely new set up. Perhaps though you start with one unit and the same station on the next one is like version 2.0 where it doesn't really re-explain the functions, but the new features and a little bit how it works on that unit.

Not having a tutorial on Dangerous Waters killed the game for me. I did okay on Sub Command for the most part, although me and the TMA still fought each other a lot. I'm more of a WWII simmer, but the modern stuff is a ton of fun, but it would be a lot more fun if I understood it.

2.) Go play Great Naval Battles, which ever one is the Guadalcanal one, it's one of the best. Now take everything you've learned from commanding individual units in that game and incorporate it into the new game. The GNB series did a great job with the keep it simple stupid stuff. Also, you have to add damage control. It's just not a true simulation without damage control and repair crews.

3.) Bigger boats. Riding around in a Frigate in DW is a lot like riding around in a destroyer in Destroyer Command. It's a lot of fun being the do-it-all ship, but man it was really easy to get jealous of the big boys. Let us sit in the big boy chair and protect an aircraft carrier or launch a large scale bombardment. I wouldn't mind sitting in a Aircraft Carrier either, but I think that could be a whole game in itself, so I'm not holding my breath. :)

One of the things that makes simulations exciting is if the tactical problems we can create with it mirror the challenges faced by our forces in real life. With that in mind, maybe the "next" sim should focus a bit more on the littorals instead of blue water.

A littoral focus would mean more emphasis on people and less on technology. Small boat operations (such as boarding parties), gunnery, tactical communications, and intelligence become much more important. You'd have to be able to observe and interact with other platforms/crews in ways that go beyond detecting them and shooting at them.

I don't know if there's enough material to make a whole new sim out of this idea, but in terms of the "next" DW you could add an IR/EO station (possibly associated with a CIWS mount), launch VBSS craft from skimmers the same way you launch SOF from subs (and also recall and recover them, just as important), integrate calls to stop and warning shots into the trigger/doctrine system, and go deeper into mine warfare. Or be able to place bombs inside platforms that can detonate, instead of just having a "suicide attack" ramming script. Maybe even make platforms more complex and interactive, such as being able to see equipment on deck, being able to give simple commands to crew/passengers such as move, raise hands, lie down, etc., being able to kill crew/passengers or damage specific parts of a boat, although that may be too far out of the box.

A good measuring stick would be whether the features of the new sim would allow incidents like the Cole bombing, the Cornwall abductions, Somali piracy, or a hypothetical asymmetric warfare campaign in the Persian Gulf to be the basis for a scenario that would be fun to play.

So guys, lets start to write a letter to BOHEMIA INTERACTIVE?

main question, how many peoples going to buy new sim?

pool or roll-call?

Although Gerald R. Ford-class and Nimitz-class CVNs would be nice playable platforms, I'm hoping for the chance to play as an Arleigh Burke-class or Zumwalt-class DDG or a Ticonderoga-class VLS CG. Speaking of VLS, SCS, please update the Oliver Hazard Perry-class FFGs to VLS standard! :up:

Its not really a standard, only the RAN boats have them and those are to be retired soon (two have been already). ;)

If they do that add the Taiwanese version with the HFIII missiles. :yep:

Although Gerald R. Ford-class and Nimitz-class CVNs would be nice playable platforms, I'm hoping for the chance to play as an Arleigh Burke-class or Zumwalt-class DDG or a Ticonderoga-class VLS CG. Speaking of VLS, SCS, please update the Oliver Hazard Perry-class FFGs to VLS standard! :up:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/smar...er_offline.gif http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/smartdark/report.gif Although Gerald R. Ford-class and Nimitz-class CVNs would be nice playable platforms, I'm hoping for the chance to play as an Arleigh Burke-class or Zumwalt-class DDG or a Ticonderoga-class VLS CG. Speaking of VLS, SCS, please update the Oliver Hazard Perry-class FFGs to VLS standard! :up:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/smar...er_offline.gif http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/smartdark/report.gif Not just Nimitz and Gerald Ford classes would be amazing like playable units,also more complex addons from other Navies, Invincible,Queen Elisabeth,R11,..........and more.

Let's not forget Russian Kilos that can fire the Klub family. :D

Ha, ha, ha... This is all a trick!

"If Sonanalysts Made A New Game..."

It would kick ass! :rock:

I win!

(My vote is for improved DW with Arleigh Burke, Better EW, and definitely sustain and improve the air units. P-8? LCS? I also like the idea of integrating with FC so there wouldn't be "non-playable units." Everything else pretty much as DW, with new platforms and fixes. More robust multiplay I think falls in that category! The more people that have exposure to this multi-player community, I think the more games you'll sell.)

There are none in real life. The only Kilos with non-subroc missile capability are the Chinese and Indian ones with Klub missiles and the Iranian ones with C-801 missiles.

True, but you'd be hard pressed to find US Navy subs with ASCM either. Let's face it, if the Russian Navy wasn't dead the Kilo would most likely carry the Klub series. Altho, if the Russian Navy was alive and kicking they'd probably retire the Kilo and start building the Lada..

Also, I demand nuclear weapons! No matter what your view of them in sims may be, you have to admit the game seems a little off without them. I'd like to be able to start scenarios with conventional weapons, with the possibility of escalating to nuclear weapons being fired in anger. Suddenly the Kilos are firing nuclear tipped Starfish, Bears are dropping WE-177 nuclear depth charges, and you never know which one of those inbound vampires is the nuclear variant. Of course, nuclear weapons in SP and MP could be locked. Things would get a little boring if people could just freely nuke anything anytime they wanted.

Nukes would be nice. I remember having loads of fun paying as a VMF Oscar-class SSGN and sinking an entire USN CVN strike grup with one nuclear-tipped ASM. :yeah:

Last thing I want it another reborn Soviet Empire scenario. There is so much possibilities in realistic scenarios that its grasping at straws to do something like that. If they put the Russians in put them in with what they got IRL (that goes for the Akula as well- those external tubes are for decoys!)

Plus even if they did add the N-27, you would only get two tubes fire it on the Kilo.

Someone didn't deploy the ships in that Carrier Group right... :nope: